Police Dept Signage

[rtschl]

OK. Sometime this weekend I will write up the letter to fax to the city. But first I want to go to the other city complex offices and see if any other buildings are posted and send them all in at once.

[Pawpaw]

Don't forget to take pictures and send them in with the letters!

[rtschl]

I received response from the city today in the mail. Their argument is that "the police station houses our Municipal Correctional Facility, as well as serves as the location for arraignments of prisoners being held in this correctional facility, making the facility a government premise utilized by the courts. With these functions being housed, held and performed within the Police Station, the facility falls under the allowable prohibitions of 46.03 and 46.035, Penal code."

I would point them to the AG's recent opinion regarding shared court house facility as the front lobby would not qualify. But would they be correct that it is off limits because 46.035 b (3) states the premises of a correctional facility is off limits? Premises is defined as the building here and correctional facility is defined in Penal Code 1.07 (45).

(45) "Secure correctional facility" means:
(A) a municipal or county jail; or
(B) a confinement facility operated by or under a contract with any division of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice.

I'm thinking the holding facility makes the premises off limits. Need some others to think this through with me. Either way, it was nice that I did get a polite response from the city.

[rtschl]

I meant to add that I saw an officer walk into the lobby and then into the secured area from the lobby while armed. If a police officer can carry into the lobby does that make a difference? Aren't officers also prohibited from carrying into a correctional facility?

[srothstein]

Rtschl,

You answered your own question without realizing it. You pointed out the AG's opinion says that a shared facility is not fully prohibited. But when you asked about the correctional facility, you missed that the definition of premises is building or portion of a building. This is the exact phrase that the opinion is based on and I would presume that the same logic would apply. Only the part directly used woudl be banned.

There is even further argument in this case int eh Government Code where it mentions that a peace officer can ban your carrying in the secure part of the police station. It requires signs and some form of secure storage and does not apply to places open tot he general public. Since the building is primarily a police station, the correctional part is part of the secure area, and has specific requirements that must be made.

I can see where arguments could be made that the ban on correctional facilities might override the need for storage for that part of the building, but the overall logic says it only applies to the parts used, not the whole building.

[dac1842]

Without getting into the technicalities of the law on City/County property. I go down to HPD sometimes to get stuff that I have requested under the FOIA, or reports on investigations I am doing.

I always leave my weapon in the car. Why? Think about it for a second. IF a gun fight breaks in the PD, do you want to be the unknown civilian pulling a weapon among the police that know each other?

It won't end well for you, guaranteed! At minimum you will be ordered to the ground and disarmed until such time as they get things figured out, or at worse, you will get shot.

I hedge my bets and leave the gun in the car. I like my chances of survival better.

[mr1337]

Without getting into the technicalities of the law on City/County property. I go down to HPD sometimes to get stuff that I have requested under the FOIA, or reports on investigations I am doing.

I always leave my weapon in the car. Why? Think about it for a second. IF a gun fight breaks in the PD, do you want to be the unknown civilian pulling a weapon among the police that know each other?

It won't end well for you, guaranteed! At minimum you will be ordered to the ground and disarmed until such time as they get things figured out, or at worse, you will get shot.

I hedge my bets and leave the gun in the car. I like my chances of survival better.

You'd still have the option to not pull your gun out.

[rtschl]

Rtschl,

You answered your own question without realizing it. You pointed out the AG's opinion says that a shared facility is not fully prohibited. But when you asked about the correctional facility, you missed that the definition of premises is building or portion of a building. This is the exact phrase that the opinion is based on and I would presume that the same logic would apply. Only the part directly used woudl be banned.

There is even further argument in this case int eh Government Code where it mentions that a peace officer can ban your carrying in the secure part of the police station. It requires signs and some form of secure storage and does not apply to places open tot he general public. Since the building is primarily a police station, the correctional part is part of the secure area, and has specific requirements that must be made.

I can see where arguments could be made that the ban on correctional facilities might override the need for storage for that part of the building, but the overall logic says it only applies to the parts used, not the whole building.

Srothstein, Sorry, didn't see your post til now. I was hoping for a consensus from some of the more experienced members on whether the correctional part for the lobby that serves other purposes would apply. I really appreciate your feedback. I think I will go ahead and file a complaint with the AG and let him rule as the City Manager suggested I do.

You'd still have the option to not pull your gun out.

Agreed mr1337.

[AJSully421]

Sounds like the same thing that Benbrook has.

The "jail" part of the building is going to be a separate section of the building, and even police may not carry in there. They will have lockers right outside to put their weapons in. So that correctional facility thing is not the issue here.

What is the issue is that to get out of jail, you pay a bond. Seems that this is done at the "dispatcher's window" via the police station lobby. Benbrook has the additional issue where the PD lobby is also the Municipal Court lobby.

However, according to the AG opinion, neither of these matter unless there is someone actively in there paying a bond. So, you are there, doing what you are doing, legally concealed, and in walks a guy who says he is there to pay a bond... it may be the case that as of that exact moment, you are illegal to carry. The guy pays, and walks out, and now you are legal again... maybe?

Sounds like a mess. Also sounds like an opportunity to get things fixed in 2017. Change the wording to "In a Courtroom where court is in session." to clarify some of this junk. I know that small towns are doing this to ban carry where they want to. That is the only reason why Benbrook has their court clerk in City Hall and the actual court in the PD building next door, so that they have an excuse to ban carry. Benbrook City Council also fought tooth and nail, and even proposed to just pay the fine for having a city ordinance prohibiting licensed carry in their city parks. This is in a small, conservative suburb of 22,000. Imagine how much worse the liberal gutters of this state are.

[rtschl]

Yeah, I'd like to see something along the lines of any government building or portion of a building that is statutorily off limits MUST provide secured storage. Getting from your vehicle to inside the building can sometimes be the most dangerous.

[mr1337]

Yeah, I'd like to see something along the lines of any government building or portion of a building that is statutorily off limits MUST provide secured storage. Getting from your vehicle to inside the building can sometimes be the most dangerous.

Sec. 411.207.

(b) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may temporarily disarm a license holder when a license holder enters a nonpublic, secure portion of a law enforcement facility, if the law enforcement agency provides a gun locker where the peace officer can secure the license holder's handgun. The peace officer shall secure the handgun in the locker and shall return the handgun to the license holder immediately after the license holder leaves the nonpublic, secure portion of the law enforcement facility.

Emphasis mine. The section goes on to talk about signage requirements for these secure areas of police departments in which a police officer has a right to disarm.

However, the onus is on the officer to disarm you. You are not statutorily prohibited from carrying there. They must be the one who chooses to disarm you, and only if the storage and sign requirements are met.

[AJSully421]

Yeah, I'd like to see something along the lines of any government building or portion of a building that is statutorily off limits MUST provide secured storage. Getting from your vehicle to inside the building can sometimes be the most dangerous.

A agree, but for every place that posts signs. Indoor facility with lockers, armed guard on duty at all times the location is open.