Convince me that constitutional carry is a good thing

[TexasRedneck]

CC will not negate LTC. What many forget is that LTC allows you to cross many state lines while carrying without risk of violating the law - but more importantly, it allows you to bypass the NICS check. THAT is the primary reason I'll continue to maintain my LTC, because I tend to acquire several guns every month or so....

Those fretting that criminals will carry....they already do. Those fretting that folks might take the law into their own hands....they already do. Those fretting that one bill might "win" over the other....so what? EITHER one is a good start, IMO. The more folks that carry, the more that will be raising hob with the businesses posting 30.06/30.07 - which is where the true issue lies, IMO - those that would deny us the right to carry the means to defend ourselves and our loved ones.

[G.A. Heath]

CC will not negate LTC. What many forget is that LTC allows you to cross many state lines while carrying without risk of violating the law - but more importantly, it allows you to bypass the NICS check. THAT is the primary reason I'll continue to maintain my LTC, because I tend to acquire several guns every month or so....

Those fretting that criminals will carry....they already do. Those fretting that folks might take the law into their own hands....they already do. Those fretting that one bill might "win" over the other....so what? EITHER one is a good start, IMO. The more folks that carry, the more that will be raising hob with the businesses posting 30.06/30.07 - which is where the true issue lies, IMO - those that would deny us the right to carry the means to defend ourselves and our loved ones.

Is that you Shane McCrary?

I haven't seen where anyone said it would negate the LTC (Although in 2014/2015 OCT did call to "overturn the CHL law" and later clarified their position that they wished for it to remain, but be optional). There are additional legal benefits to possessing an LTC than what you mention such as protection from the Federal Gun Free School Zones act which unlicensed carry at the state level would not fix.

As you pointed out criminals already carry, and those on this forum are not fretting that unlicensed carry will allow them to carry, they are concerned that it will be more difficult for Law Enforcement to determine if someone is legal to carry or not. While this argument is being made, most people do not realize that when a LEO runs a person through NCIC this is determined rather quickly better than 98% of the time.

[TexasRedneck]

Is that you Shane McCrary?

No, sir.....

I haven't seen where anyone said it would negate the LTC (Although in 2014/2015 OCT did call to "overturn the CHL law" and later clarified their position that they wished for it to remain, but be optional). There are additional legal benefits to possessing an LTC than what you mention such as protection from the Federal Gun Free School Zones act which unlicensed carry at the state level would not fix.

Exactly - there would be further years of "tweaking" of any law that might be passed - but it would be a step in the right direction IMO.

As you pointed out criminals already carry, and those on this forum are not fretting that unlicensed carry will allow them to carry, they are concerned that it will be more difficult for Law Enforcement to determine if someone is legal to carry or not. While this argument is being made, most people do not realize that when a LEO runs a person through NCIC this is determined rather quickly better than 98% of the time.

Agreed - but it's unfortunate that so many within the gun community seem to have the attitude of "I don't want to do it, so let's not make it legal." Ain't mad at anyone over it, but it IS disheartening to hear that kind of talk from fellow gun owners, similar to those that, since they don't hunt with AR's, seem okay with letting them be banned/controlled. Anyone that wants to see where THAT leads need only to look to California, where collectors such as myself may no longer import a Randall .45 or 9 mm, since it's no longer on the DOJ "approved guns" list.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Those fretting that one bill might "win" over the other....so what? EITHER one is a good start, IMO.

Not hardly! HB375 would amend TPC §30.06 such that it applies to both licensed and unlicensed concealed-carry. That would be a disaster as it would strip property owners of the ability to allow licensed concealed-carry while prohibiting unlicensed concealed-carry. Concealed-carry has been a non-issue for decades and this is why very few locations post 30.06 signs. Many property owners faced with either letting everyone in with guns or no one while choose no one. That's not a "good start."

HB1911 in it's as-filed form does likewise, but the committee substitute has already been drafted and it fixes that problem. A committee substitute has allegedly been prepared for HB375, but it does not correct the TPC §30.06 problem.

Chas.

[TexasRedneck]

Not hardly! HB375 would amend TPC §30.06 such that it applies to both licensed and unlicensed concealed-carry. That would be a disaster as it would strip property owners of the ability to allow licensed concealed-carry while prohibiting unlicensed concealed-carry. Concealed-carry has been a non-issue for decades and this is why very few locations post 30.06 signs. Many property owners faced with either letting everyone in with guns or no one while choose no one. That's not a "good start."

HB1911 in it's as-filed form does likewise, but the committee substitute has already been drafted and it fixes that problem. A committee substitute has allegedly been prepared for HB375, but it does not correct the TPC §30.06 problem.

Chas.

Good point. Then again, the 30.06 sign postings have continued to increase so I'm not so sure that it's a reason that would cause them to increase even further. But - IMO, NEITHER should be prohibited because we're allowing someone else to determine whether we have the ability to defend ourselves without any legal consequences on their end for doing so.

As a practical matter, though - I think that 1911 is a more palatable option for those that continue to be convinced that a LEO will arrive in time to "save" them - and the fewer folks that oppose it, the better.

[ScottDLS]

Those fretting that one bill might "win" over the other....so what? EITHER one is a good start, IMO.

Not hardly! HB375 would amend TPC §30.06 such that it applies to both licensed and unlicensed concealed-carry. That would be a disaster as it would strip property owners of the ability to allow licensed concealed-carry while prohibiting unlicensed concealed-carry. Concealed-carry has been a non-issue for decades and this is why very few locations post 30.06 signs. Many property owners faced with either letting everyone in with guns or no one while choose no one. That's not a "good start."

HB1911 in it's as-filed form does likewise, but the committee substitute has already been drafted and it fixes that problem. A committee substitute has allegedly been prepared for HB375, but it does not correct the TPC §30.06 problem.

Chas.

Would it apply 30.06 to police officers, special investigators, and MPA carry?

[Ruark]

...the 30.06 sign postings have continued to increase ...

That's another thing that worries me. A senator's assistant told me last year that if we were so concerned about the explosion in 06 signs after the last session, we should have left well enough alone. Before the last session, 06 signs were a quiet, background issue. Most people didn't even know what it was. Then all the open carry foofooraw called huge amounts of attention to the signage issue, and suddenly businesses that had never heard of them were posting them by their front doors. I hope all the 560/375/1911 noise this session doesn't kick it up yet another level.

[TexasRedneck]

...the 30.06 sign postings have continued to increase ...

That's another thing that worries me. A senator's assistant told me last year that if we were so concerned about the explosion in 06 signs after the last session, we should have left well enough alone. Before the last session, 06 signs were a quiet, background issue. Most people didn't even know what it was. Then all the open carry foofooraw called huge amounts of attention to the signage issue, and suddenly businesses that had never heard of them were posting them by their front doors. I hope all the 560/375/1911 noise this session doesn't kick it up yet another level.

All the more reason that we need to work towards engaging the owners of these businesses as to educating them with regards as to just how SAFE a customer someone with a LTC is, and why it's in their best interest NOT to keep them out. I saw the same proliferation back in '95, then they gradually tapered off, and most businesses started removing them. Given time, I think the same thing will happen again - ESPECIALLY if something happens to require rewording of the signs. At that point, I think a lot of the businesses will simply decide it's more hassle than it's worth and leave 'em down, or leave the old signs up (and therefore negating their legality, as so many have over the years).

[rotor]

...the 30.06 sign postings have continued to increase ...

That's another thing that worries me. A senator's assistant told me last year that if we were so concerned about the explosion in 06 signs after the last session, we should have left well enough alone. Before the last session, 06 signs were a quiet, background issue. Most people didn't even know what it was. Then all the open carry foofooraw called huge amounts of attention to the signage issue, and suddenly businesses that had never heard of them were posting them by their front doors. I hope all the 560/375/1911 noise this session doesn't kick it up yet another level.

All the more reason that we need to work towards engaging the owners of these businesses as to educating them with regards as to just how SAFE a customer someone with a LTC is, and why it's in their best interest NOT to keep them out. I saw the same proliferation back in '95, then they gradually tapered off, and most businesses started removing them. Given time, I think the same thing will happen again - ESPECIALLY if something happens to require rewording of the signs. At that point, I think a lot of the businesses will simply decide it's more hassle than it's worth and leave 'em down, or leave the old signs up (and therefore negating their legality, as so many have over the years).

I personally don't think "educating" businesses, except in rare circumstances, does anything. Perhaps someday we can get legislation to end 30.06 (and maybe 51% alcohol) signage. What's concealed is concealed. Once that 30.06 sign is plastered on that glass doorway it is hard to remove.

[s3779m]

Just out of curiosity, for those who want constitutional carry so they can legally carry, why have you not taken the classes to get your license?

I have a license.

Just out of curiosity, for those opposed to constitutional carry, what classes and fees should be required before somebody can vote?

Well, same here, I am just looking for reasons why someone who wants to carry has not got their license.

As for voting, we could start with printing ballots in only English and ask for a photo id. to start with. But thats kinda off the subject.

[TexasRedneck]

Well, same here, I am just looking for reasons why someone who wants to carry has not got their license.

I can tell you one reason - budget. If you figure an average course is $100, and add the $140 for the license, and the fingerprint fees, you can get to $500+ for a couple. Factor in a couple of kids to raise, and it can be a large hurdle.

My oldest son and his wife are a single-income family. They made the choice to raise the kids with her at home - it's been great for the kids, but a challenge for them at times to afford things many of us take for granted - but they do it.

His wife is EXTREMELY shy, and has never spoken publicly. She's also pro-gun and wants to get a LTC, so I was able to talk her into going to Austin with me last week and speak to the committee in favor of removing/reducing the state license fees. I was proud of her doing so - she was VERY nervous about it, but handled herself VERY well.

Of course, her testimony was picked up back in San Antonio and broadcast on the local TV/radio stations, so I figure that it'll be safe for me to back back around her in a coupla months......lol

[G.A. Heath]

Let me give you a scenario where unlicensed carry would help someone:

A mother has taken her kids and left an abusive husband. She has a restraining order but he has made it clear that he intends to harm or kill her because she has left him. She purchased/borrowed/was given a handgun for defense and has applied for her license, taken her class and mailed her paperwork in. DPS has just received it and started the background check when the estranged husband finds her and kills her in the grocery store while she was waiting in line to checkout. She saw him and attempted to flee to her vehicle where her handgun was waiting, but her husband who was carrying illegally already had his weapon and stopped her before she could get the tool she needed to stop him. While processing her effects police find a copy of the restraining order against her murderous husband in her purse.

[TexasRedneck]

Let me give you a scenario where unlicensed carry would help someone:

Trust me - you're preaching to the choir here - IMHO, CC in some form or fashion is LONG overdue. We've got to get by all the "blood in the streets" types - which includes folks within our own gun community - so I say do what it takes to get it, and refine it over the years, if that's what it takes to get it passed. The "all or nothing" mindset WILL end up giving us nothing.

[Charles L. Cotton]

...the 30.06 sign postings have continued to increase ...

That's another thing that worries me. A senator's assistant told me last year that if we were so concerned about the explosion in 06 signs after the last session, we should have left well enough alone. Before the last session, 06 signs were a quiet, background issue. Most people didn't even know what it was. Then all the open carry foofooraw called huge amounts of attention to the signage issue, and suddenly businesses that had never heard of them were posting them by their front doors. I hope all the 560/375/1911 noise this session doesn't kick it up yet another level.

All the more reason that we need to work towards engaging the owners of these businesses as to educating them with regards as to just how SAFE a customer someone with a LTC is, and why it's in their best interest NOT to keep them out. I saw the same proliferation back in '95, then they gradually tapered off, and most businesses started removing them. Given time, I think the same thing will happen again - ESPECIALLY if something happens to require rewording of the signs. At that point, I think a lot of the businesses will simply decide it's more hassle than it's worth and leave 'em down, or leave the old signs up (and therefore negating their legality, as so many have over the years).

There was no Tex. Penal Code §30.06 in 1995. The epidemic was the posting of small 2"X2" or 3"X3" decals with an international slash over a Beretta 92. Businesses never stop posting them and very few removed them, even after 9/1/1997. We passed HB2909 in 1997 and it went into effect on 9/14/1997. This stopped the small decal problem and relatively few businesses posted a 30.06 sign until we saw a short-lived surge prior to 1/1/2016 when open-carry came into effect.

Chas.

[TexasRedneck]

There was no Tex. Penal Code §30.06 in 1995. The epidemic was the posting of small 2"X2" or 3"X3" decals with an international slash over a Beretta 92. Businesses never stop posting them and very few removed them, even after 9/1/1997. We passed HB2909 in 1997 and it went into effect on 9/14/1997. This stopped the small decal problem and relatively few businesses posted a 30.06 sign until we saw a short-lived surge prior to 1/1/2016 when open-carry came into effect.

Chas.

Yep - you're right.....been too long, I reckon!lol!!! I remember all those signs, and the PITA to try to spot 'em.

But, I AM still seeing signage going up at a higher rate that we used to - and some of 'em in some places that rather surprised me. I'm hopeful that with the passage of time, many of them will come back down.