I often wonder if CHL is worth it

[cpix]

It’s easy to sit in a class and listen to this is what you do here and this is what you do there, but when it comes down to really cracking the nuts it’s a different situation. I’ve been in that situation two times and luckily each time I didn’t have to pull the trigger. Afterwards it gets you thinking about the repercussions. I know for a fact that there is no amount of training that will prepare you for the actual moment you pull the trigger.

I lived 30 years in California, most of that in Southern California and gang activity there is more prevalent than Texas. However, California gangs are now spreading their influence throughout the country and the Texas gangs are adopting the California styles. I don’t think a lot of Texans are really aware of what gang activity is. If you kill a gang member, you’re a dead man. I don’t care where you go, how many guns you’ve got, or how good a shot you are — you’re a dead man. Let me repeat again — you’re a dead man.

So I think that you need to be thinking about the possibilities here. Is it better to be dead now or wait in fear for a few days or perhaps a week? Will they also kill your wife and family? If you haven’t thought about these things, I question your maturity to carry a weapon. I know that cops think about these things. I don’t consider this fear; I consider it intelligence.

[stroo]

Go to Charles' seminar. It is really good and if nothing else, you can spend some time talking to Charles about your situation.

[boomerang]

If you kill a gang member, you’re a dead man. I don’t care where you go, how many guns you’ve got, or how good a shot you are — you’re a dead man. Let me repeat again — you’re a dead man.

What if I kill three? Two dozen?

[frankie_the_yankee]

I don’t think a lot of Texans are really aware of what gang activity is. If you kill a gang member, you’re a dead man. I don’t care where you go, how many guns you’ve got, or how good a shot you are — you’re a dead man. Let me repeat again — you’re a dead man.

I appreciate the points you are making. I have thought about similar things myself, even though gang activity is non-existent around where I live.

The following are some of my own thoughts and opinions on the subject, which may be worthless or not. See how they fit in with your experiences.

As a practical matter, if you had to kill a gang member in self defense there are a couple of things that come into play. One is that you become "harder to kill" (with any hope of getting away with it) because of your new status as a witness (to the crime attempted against you) and self defense actor. Somebody whacks you and the cops pretty much know where to look for them and who they might be. Would you also need to relocate, including your family? Most likely. And FWIW, I doubt gang members are especially sophisticated at finding people outside of their "turf". Not like the Mafia for instance.

If it is a clean self defense shooting, your other guns will not (should not at least) be taken away from you, so you will still have the self defense option open. (The gun you used will be taken as "evidence" while the incident is investigated and you won't get it back for a while.) Taking Chas' class is one way to increase the chances that any shooting you might be involved in is "clean" (and that you don't blab your way into jail afterward). The new 'stand your ground' law is a help here too.

I know of a few cases in RI (where I'm from) where people involved as witnesses to gang crimes have been killed, in spite of state-provided "protection". But these people did not have CHL's available nor did they relocate. FWIW, the 'bangers were easily identified, caught, and sent up for life.

Finally, "Death Wish" was a good movie, but I wouldn't want to live it out for real. I still think that the best option for you is to "pre-emptively" relocate. Financial concerns would be secondary to me, even if I was earning minimum wage. (I should be able to earn that almost anywhere, right?) But in any event, I would rather have the ability to defend myself and face the consequences, both legal and practical. If I am dead, I'm not around to face anything.

And who protects my family then?

[Dragonfighter]

i have felt similar feelings.

as a christian, i often struggle with hypothetical scenarios of deadly force while defending myself.

Our Lord and Savior told His disciples... "And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing." And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. "For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, `AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." {Luke 22:35-38, emphasis mine, caps in original}

Why, if we are not to defend ourselves. Think about this also, "Thou shalt not kill" is "You shall not murder" if you explore the linguistic origins. If not, God would be contradicting Himself whenever He ordered His people to war or impart the death penalty. To accuse God of contradicting Himself is anathema to a Christian.

Carry your sword in good conscience but wield it justly and with precision...for we will answer for it.

Kyle

[fadlan12]

It’s easy to sit in a class and listen to this is what you do here and this is what you do there, but when it comes down to really cracking the nuts it’s a different situation. I’ve been in that situation two times and luckily each time I didn’t have to pull the trigger. Afterwards it gets you thinking about the repercussions. I know for a fact that there is no amount of training that will prepare you for the actual moment you pull the trigger.

I lived 30 years in California, most of that in Southern California and gang activity there is more prevalent than Texas. However, California gangs are now spreading their influence throughout the country and the Texas gangs are adopting the California styles. I don’t think a lot of Texans are really aware of what gang activity is. If you kill a gang member, you’re a dead man. I don’t care where you go, how many guns you’ve got, or how good a shot you are — you’re a dead man. Let me repeat again — you’re a dead man.

So I think that you need to be thinking about the possibilities here. Is it better to be dead now or wait in fear for a few days or perhaps a week? Will they also kill your wife and family? If you haven’t thought about these things, I question your maturity to carry a weapon. I know that cops think about these things. I don’t consider this fear; I consider it intelligence.

That's a scary mentality, you don't know what the future brings but living in fear of retribution can be crippling. I have some concerns too after the man shot the robber in his front yard and the BG's friends terrorized him.
If I have to use deadly force once to defend myself I won't be worried about revenge at that momment. For me first priority is making sure my family is safe.

[GlockandLoad]

I don’t care where you go, how many guns you’ve got, or how good a shot you are — you’re a dead man. Let me repeat again — you’re a dead man.

I am alive and well.


Oh, and on a side note: If you shoot and kill a gang member, especially in self defense, the cops will shake your hands and then buy you a beer.
The governement really does not care about these people at all. If New Orleans during Katrina didn't enforce that, then I don't know what will.
If someone tries to take your life, then kill them. Retributions - cross that bridge when you come to it. If you pop a gang member, the cops will know instantly that you could be in danger. Being that they know this, and they have already bought you that beer and shaked that hand, they won't mind if you have to drop a few more. You will be doing them a favor.

[CHLSteve]

Has anyone else had these thoughts?

All the time. Everyday.

[Paladin]

If you kill a gang member, you’re a dead man. I don’t care where you go, how many guns you’ve got, or how good a shot you are — you’re a dead man. Let me repeat again — you’re a dead man.

Fear is how the gangs control people.

It's a lot easier to make people do what you want through fear than actual force.

The mentality you're describing here is what gangs want people to believe. It is NOT reality.

I helped put a member of the Crips on death row. Where there death threats? you bet... But I was ready for 'em and it was all talk.

The fact that we're CHLs makes us hard targets. Maybe if the gangs try hard enough they could kill us... but the return fire is likely to make it a 'tie' And they don't wanna die.

[seamusTX]

OK. I spent some time searching for cases where gangsters took revenge on an honest citizen who defended himself from them. I can't find one. I'm talking about gangsters killing or injuring the defender or his family, not just harrassment.

This is one of those things that "everyone knows" happen, but I think it mostly happens on TV.

Organized criminals have gone after cops, detectives, and people in the criminal justice system. They have killed witnesses in some cases.

My honest feeling is that if the situation is so bad that gangsters will take revenge on a citizen for defending himself, we might as well give up and just make a protection deal with them. Maybe they'll settle for 3/4 of our income.

- Jim

[TraCoun]

It’s easy to sit in a class and listen to this is what you do here and this is what you do there, but when it comes down to really cracking the nuts it’s a different situation. I’ve been in that situation two times and luckily each time I didn’t have to pull the trigger.

cpix -
Charles' legal seminar will present you with a good survey of the applicable laws in Texas. With that information you might be able to make better decisions when the need arises. It is well worth the time. If you can make it, we'd like to see you there.
Thanx,
TraCoun

[sbb]

cpix,

I firmly believe that the responsibility to defend my family and myself far outweigh the perceived fear of retribution. The main reason that I applied for my CHL was for our protection. I, too, live in the southwest part of town. On any Friday or Saturday night you can hear pistol fire in the 59/Bissonett/Braeswookd area. This area is over 2 miles from my residence. I am in no fear of imminent attack but I will be always on alert. My neighborhood is beautiful, the neighbors are friendly and helpful, and I will not let any gang or their members take by force or fear what I have worked for. Just my $.02

[Charles L. Cotton]

cpix:
My suggestion to come to the Deadly Force & Legislative Update Seminar on Sept. 28th was primarily in response to your comment that "But I know that every bullet has a lawyer attached to it". I have no doubt that in some parts of the country this is possibly/probably true, but not in Texas. The seminar is designed not only to teach Texas law on self-defense, but to help people understand how it's applied in the real world. From the comments I've received form people, I believe those goals are achieved.

However, after reading your post again along with your follow up post, I think your greater concern is retaliation. The seminar will not help you with that issue, as the choice between fighting or submitting and hoping for the best a purely a personal one.

Chas.

[CHLSteve]

I cannot find any information about the "Deadly Force & Legislative Update Seminar". Can you provide some more info?

[seamusTX]

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... php?t=9366

I highly recommend this seminar. Where else can you hear from a Texas lawyer who is a shooter and NRA board member?

- Jim