2007 State Fair of Texas - Important CHL Update

[GrandmasterB]

Wow. Thanks for the warning. Was actually planning to try to get up to DFW to see some friends and take in the fair while we were there. May have to rethink.

I agree it is a very crummy neighborhood, but some parts of the fair are pretty good family fun. The frisbee dogs sure are fun to see. Wish Skidboot was still there.

[AEA]

State Fair or no State Fair, I personally would NEVER go to that part of Dallas FOR ANY REASON!

I am happy to see that our rights to carry are being addressed in this thread and I hope it gets straightened out for those that choose to risk their life for an overpriced corny dog!

I seriously doubt that anything positive can be accomplished immediately for those that want to go armed. By this time next year I suspect that any who choose to challenge any part of these actions (including detainment) will have completed their defense and obtained a satisfactory result for their efforts.

Either that or Perry will have put a stop to all this and eliminated ALL restrictions on CHL holders.

[nitrogen]

If it gets straightened out, maybe we'll have to have a CHLFORUM Day at the state fair?

My wife doesn't want to go, but I sure do, and it might be fun. I've yet to visit the Texas State Fair.

[Commander]

We were told that if someone comes into the fair with a gun and they have a CHL that there will be no LE action taken against them as they have not broken any state laws. However, a representative of the State Fair will be contacted and the violator will be detained until they arrive. Once the State Fair representative arrives the violator will be informed once again of this new policy and asked to remove their gun from the premises. If they refuse to do so then they will be given a Criminal Trespass warning and if they refuse at that time to leave, or return back to the fair grounds this year they will be arrested.

Dumb Question time:

1- If they have not broken any state laws, why are they being referred to as "violators"; and under what authority are they being detained?

2- What is the basis of the Criminal Trespass Warning? As Charles stated, 30.06 does not apply and 30.05 can't be used to deny admission based on carrying a handgun with a CHL.

[Commander]

From the official State Fair Web Page:

Question: Can I bring:
...a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. Licenses will be examined at the entrance by an authorized security supervisor. Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience.

http://www.bigtex.com/generalinfo/faqs/bring.html

[NguyenVanDon]

[jrosto]

My wife and I look forward to taking our oldest grandson to the State Fair every year. Since I love my wife, and my grandson, we will not be attending this year if CHL holders are to be treated in this way.

[Renegade]

2- What is the basis of the Criminal Trespass Warning? As Charles stated, 30.06 does not apply and 30.05 can't be used to deny admission based on carrying a handgun with a CHL.

30.05 does not say "does not apply". It says "defense to prosecution". It also does not say, "must allow you to enter". We re-hashed this in the other thread. You show up, they say no guns. It is over (and you lost) unless you force your way in, then they arrest you (now you really lost). At some later point in time, you can cite the"defense to prosecution", by showing your CHL and avoid the charge (so you are not as much of a loser as first thought).

Folks, these people hate guns gun owners and will do every thing they can even if illegal or in violation of the spirit of the law. In some regards I think TSRA and gun owners are bit naive and need to write tighter laws.

Question: Can I bring:
...a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. Licenses will be examined at the entrance by an authorized security supervisor. Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience.

Well, I know a Peace Officer would be allowed in also, so that is two exceptions. Thus I would not make any assumptions about the accuracy of that web page.

[Greybeard]

Thanks very much for the timely heads-up on this issue. I encourge folks in all of my CHL classes to at least "lurk" here on the forum - and this is just one more reason to do so.

[Charles L. Cotton]

The fact that government-owned property is leased or rented by a private entity doesn't change the clear and unambiguous language in the statute. That said, there is no case law on point, so I would not recommend anyone to push the issue. Yes, it is my professional opinion that the express language of TPC §30.06 would be controlling on appeal, but that would be an expensive trip through the system.

Renegade is correct, TPC §30.05 deals with a “defense to prosecution,� not an exception. However, based upon the procedures that will be used, any LEO at the scene will be told by the Fair official that the CHL is being told to leave “because they have a gun.� Thus, the only evidence an arresting officer will have is that no crime has been committed. Making an arrest under these circumstances would normally expose the officer and the city to civil damages. However, since the issue of government-owned property being rented by a private entity has not been determined by a court, then I believe the officer’s actions would still be found to be carried out in a good faith, reasonable belief that the arrest was proper.

I can't say more, but this issue is being addressed. It won’t be in time for this year’s Fair.

Thanks again CHL/LEO for the heads-up.

Chas.

[Rokyudai]

Geez louise. I was working there for our company 2 years ago and had to leave at it's close every night into that neighborhood to get my car...would not wish anyone that hurried walk. All I have to say is that once again they are giving the 'locals' a smorgesbord to pick from and victimize.

If they wanted to do some good, they could check the health code compliance of the Frito Pie/Fried Twinkie tent!

...man I could go for a Frito Pie right about now!

[CHL/LEO]

why are they being referred to as "violators"

The reason that I used the term "violator" rather than "criminal" is that they are not breaking any laws at that time - they are only violating the "house rules" of the person in control of the property.

As far as detaining people or "investigating a situation" this would be the same as any private entity that hires police officers in Texas. If for example a church group (it could be any type of organization) rented out a facility, hired LEOs for security, and told them that only members of their congregation were allowed on the premises. They also told the LEOs working there that members of their congregation were told to wear an ID badge and that they had to wear it at all times while on the premises. If the LEOs saw someone on the property without an ID badge they would be authorized to stop them and investigate the situation. If a person told them that they are a member of the congregation but had misplaced their ID the LEOs would be authorized to "detain" that person until someone in charge could verify their story.

If they weren't supposed to be there then they would be issued a CT warning by the individual in charge of the property (not the LEO) and then if that person refused to leave (or returned) they would be arrested for CT. This is exactly what's being done at the State Fair. Please don't get onto me or any member of the DPD that's working the Fair regarding the legality of whether 30.06 or 30.05 applies to this event. We don't have any control over that. Our courts, the AG, or our legislature will eventually have to sort this one out. If someone wants to come down and become a "test case" regarding this issue that's your right. As I previously posted, you will be arrested and your gun will be seized along with a report being made to the DPS.

My personal advice (not as a police officer) to anyone wanting to pursue this avenue would be to go to the gate and ask one of the State Fair security people to have a Dallas Police officer brought over. Tell that officer that you don't think the State Fair rules are legal and that you plan to "challenge" those rules. Tell him you plan to enter (or attempt to enter) the State Fair and you understand that you will be issued a CT warning by a State Fair representative. Tell the officer that you plan to violate that warning and understand that you will be arrested, but under no circumstance do you want to cause a scene or any problems for that officer - that you understand that he or she is just doing their job.

This situation happens to us fairly often over the years especially when it comes to protesters. Whenever there's an event in town like the Republican National Convention, or Bush or Cheney are here, we always have protests of some sort. The majority are peaceful but sometimes they will tell us ahead of time that they are going to violate the law in some manner and know that they will be arrested - such as laying in the street and blocking traffic. Their organizers and our supervisors go over the "ground rules" ahead of time and everyone understands that when "this situation happens" it will be time for us to arrest you. They get arrested, make their point on TV and no one is hurt - peaceful civil disobedience.

If you pursue this route there should be minimal inconvenience for all concerned. I would also advise having your attorney lined up and perhaps even bring a gun that if you never saw it again it wouldn't really matter that much. Like I posted on the the thread about the AAC, I hope that this could get resolved without someone being arrested.

[AEA]

Like I posted on the the thread about the AAC, I hope that this could get resolved without someone being arrested.

I hope so too!

I can only assume that you dislike this idea/rules as much as we do......
In to say that you would feel much safer yourself if you knew that there were armed CHL's that would be willing to help you if needed in an emergency before your backup could make it to you.

[Keith B]

Has anyone though about calling the Fair Board President and advising them this last minute decision is not a good idea and see if they will hold off not allowing carry until they can publicize it better? Changing the rules this late in the game will surely cause some issues since it has been allowed in the past and is still listed as 'OK' on their website. Maybe someone with a cool negotiation head can convince them to abstain for this year.

[CHL/LEO]

I can only assume that you dislike this idea/rules as much as we do......

One day I won't be an LEO and will have to carry under the CHL rules. They need to be reasonable and fair for everyone.

Also, under the Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act that Bush signed into law LEOs are now allowed to carry on or off duty in all 50 states and DC. However, if we're not in our home state we must abide by that states CHL rules (if they have any) so every LEO has a vested interest in CHL rules whether they realize it or not.