51% poster in Beaumont

[Papalote]

We had our company CHRISTmas party (not a holiday party) at Madison's in Beaumont. I had never been there and figured they were something on the order of a restuarant say a Chili's or eatery equivilent. I approached the entrance and not seeing a notice posted, I went inside. Still looking for any sign (you can tell I'm new to carrying a weapon), I happened to notice the 51%er behind the hostess podium about 1 foot above the floor. The entry way is dark. I immediately reversed and locked my piece in the car. Upon my return I made it known that the sign was improperly posted. The law says it must be prominently posted. Are you guys finding this elsewhere?

Papalote

[txinvestigator]

We had our company CHRISTmas party (not a holiday party) at Madison's in Beaumont. I had never been there and figured they were something on the order of a restuarant say a Chili's or eatery equivilent. I approached the entrance and not seeing a notice posted, I went inside. Still looking for any sign (you can tell I'm new to carrying a weapon), I happened to notice the 51%er behind the hostess podium about 1 foot above the floor. The entry way is dark. I immediately reversed and locked my piece in the car. Upon my return I made it known that the sign was improperly posted. The law says it must be prominently posted. Are you guys finding this elsewhere?

Papalote

The 51% sign is not a requirment to keep you from carrying there. Even if a 51% establishment fails to post the sign, you have no defense to carrying a handgun there.

In other words, you cannot carry into a 51% place whether they post the sign or not.

I suppose you could argue at trial that 411.204 (CHL laws) of the government code requires a sign to be posted, and the ABC laws 104.06 (c) also require it, that you depended on that to determine where not to carry. I guess that might get you a not guilty.



Texas Penal Code
§46.035. Unlawful carrying of handgun by license holder.



(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's
person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises
consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage
Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

It has been noted here that many non-51% places are posting. If you report it to TABC they will investigate and require that the sign be removed if it is not posted properly.

[carlson1]

The 51% sign is not a requirment to keep you from carrying there. Even if a 51% establishment fails to post the sign, you have no defense to carrying a handgun there.
In other words, you cannot carry into a 51% place whether they post the sign or not.

So is places like Chili's consider a 51% establishment? If they do not post how would derive at the fact of their percetage of sale?

[Texasdoc]

Well the Chili's here in Bastrop is not a 51% as the manager is a good friend and has told me they most only make about 23 to 25 % off the sell of Alcohol.

so I carry in ours as I know the facts .



300shooter

[Kalrog]

So is places like Chili's consider a 51% establishment? If they do not post how would derive at the fact of their percetage of sale?

Corporate wide? No way.

The local one by me? Nope. No sign posted and no way based on what I see being ordered.

The one you went to? Maybe. Remember that it is 51% of revenue, not 51% of profit. I find it hard to believe that something like that is truly a 51% place - although a very strong happy hour crowd might make it so.

[carlson1]

I would think that the only 51% establishments would be straight night clubs, bars, etc. . .

[rgoldy]

Is it not also true that some places, of the sort like Chili's, post the bar section only? I have been in a number of places that, because the bar is separated from the dining room, and some had a separate entrance, were not posted. Most places that are qualified to post the TABC 51% sign are pretty careful to do so. It would seem that in the case of Madison's, they just were not posting the sign in the right place. More of a problem of not knowing where it should be than trying to conceal it.
Although I have been to places that thought having to post that sort of sign, including the 30.06 posting, lowered the "tone" of the joint.

[stevie_d_64]

I would think that the only 51% establishments would be straight night clubs, bars, etc. . .

Thats what I always understood it to be...

A business that derives 51% OR MORE (in sales) from the "ON-PREMISES CONSUMPTION" of alcohol beverages, is allowed to (or better wording, required) to post this restriction on Texas CHL holders...

I have yet to see a Chili's, Friday's, Bennigan's, Ruby Tuesday's, Olive Garden, Applebee's etc etc, fall anywhere near the level necessary to post this sign...

And I thought that sign only applied to the "bar" area of that restaurant if it did...Meaning it was not a good idea to saddle up to the bar and order anything but directions to the bathroom...

And since I comply anyway to this section of the law by not going to bars and dance clubs in the first place, much less armed if I did (figure those odds)...I guess I do not worry about this too much...

I'm sure for some reason I may have this issue skewed in some manner, and I am somewhat ok with that; because I do not drink and drive, dance, shoot and other miscellaneous activity requiring cognative reasoning and motor skills...

But this is just my opinion...

[/url]

[Papalote]

The 51% sign is not a requirment to keep you from carrying there. Even if a 51% establishment fails to post the sign, you have no defense to carrying a handgun there.

In other words, you cannot carry into a 51% place whether they post the sign or not.


The above copied from a prior post.


I guess I am just plain dumb. If it is not a requirement, how does one know if you can enter carrying a weapon. As I stated, I figured it to be a eating place. I am not one to frequent bars or restaurants as this was an annual gathering of employees.

So, how does one discern the sales of an establishement inorder to cross the threshhold? I am not being argumentive, just concerned. I do not want to do anything that may separate me from my CHL.

[txinvestigator]

The 51% sign is not a requirment to keep you from carrying there. Even if a 51% establishment fails to post the sign, you have no defense to carrying a handgun there.

In other words, you cannot carry into a 51% place whether they post the sign or not.


The above copied from a prior post.


I guess I am just plain dumb. If it is not a requirement, how does one know if you can enter carrying a weapon. As I stated, I figured it to be a eating place. I am not one to frequent bars or restaurants as this was an annual gathering of employees.

So, how does one discern the sales of an establishement inorder to cross the threshhold? I am not being argumentive, just concerned. I do not want to do anything that may separate me from my CHL.

If it is obviously a bar or club keep your gun out. If it is a place that is a food service facility as posted above, then look for the sign.

I don't believe I would have any problem discerning a bar from a restaurant that serves booze. ;)

[Charles L. Cotton]

If it is not a requirement, how does one know if you can enter carrying a weapon.

51% locations are off limits whether or not 51% signs are posted. Former Harris County DA Johnny Holmes testified during an interim study in 1996 that this should be changed and the lack of a sign would be a defense. That still needs to be done, perhaps in 2007.

Remember, violation of TPC §46.035(b)(1) - carrying in a 51% location - requires the state to prove the required mens rea (mental state) of "intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly." If you are in a restaurant that happens to be the exception and actually was a 51% location and didn't post the statutorily required 51% sign, then you may well be acquitted. The state would likely find it difficult to prove you acted intentionally, knowingly or recklessly. Again, it could be an expensive road to victory.

As a practical matter, bars are going to be 51% locations and virtually all restaurants won't be. If it appears to be a restaurant and there is no 51% sign, then I really don't see a LEO having any reason to raise the issue. (Plus, your gun is going to be concealed anyway, right?)

Regards,
Chas.

[nemesis]

The 51% sign is not a requirment to keep you from carrying there. Even if a 51% establishment fails to post the sign, you have no defense to carrying a handgun there.

Yeah, right. I'll just ask to see their books and make some quick calculations to determine the portion of their business from on site alcohol sales.

This may come as a surprise but the requirement for the sign is because we won't know unless advised. I agree that a bar is a no brainer but, other than that, it's a free fire zone unless adequately advised by proper signage.

In other words, you cannot carry into a 51% place whether they post the sign or not.

Until I become a psychic, I'll depend upon whether I see a sign.

By the way, Windmill, I'm pleased that you had a great CHRISTmas party. Take care.

[txinvestigator]

The 51% sign is not a requirment to keep you from carrying there. Even if a 51% establishment fails to post the sign, you have no defense to carrying a handgun there.

Yeah, right. I'll just ask to see their books and make some quick calculations to determine the portion of their business from on site alcohol sales.

This may come as a surprise but the requirement for the sign is because we won't know unless advised. I agree that a bar is a no brainer but, other than that, it's a free fire zone unless adequately advised by proper signage.

Please see the post directly above yours. Regardless of what you think, there is no defense for you if they don't post the sign.

Its really pretty simple.

[nemesis]

Please see the post directly above yours. Regardless of what you think, there is no defense for you if they don't post the sign.

Thank you so much, I did.

51% locations are off limits whether or not 51% signs are posted. Former Harris County DA Johnny Holmes testified during an interim study in 1996 that this should be changed and the lack of a sign would be a defense.

I did read that..........

TPC §46.035(b)(1) - carrying in a 51% location - requires the state to prove the required mens rea (mental state) of "intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly." If you are in a restaurant that happens to be the exception and actually was a 51% location and didn't post the statutorily required 51% sign, then you may well be acquitted. The state would likely find it difficult to prove you acted intentionally, knowingly or recklessly.

And it was stated that.........

As a practical matter, bars are going to be 51% locations and virtually all restaurants won't be. If it appears to be a restaurant and there is no 51% sign, then I really don't see a LEO having any reason to raise the issue.

I'm not a Barracks Lawyer but that seems to make sense to me.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I don't want my post to be a point of confusion. txinvestigator was talking about defenses and I was talking about proving a particular element of the crime - i.e. the required mental state.

txinvestigator is correct, the lack of a 51% sign is not a defense to persecution.

The point I was trying to make is that even without a defense to prosecution, the circumstances with specific cases may or may not make it harder for the prosecution to prove the required mental state. But proving the required mental state is much easier than defeating a defense to prosecution, so I don't want anyone to think I'm recommending that as a tactic. All I want people to understand is if they are incredibly unlucky enough 1) to wind up in an establishment that no one would dream is a 51% location; 2) be discovered carrying a gun; and 3) be prosecuted for it, then you may be able to win at trial. That’s far different from having a defense to prosecution (like no 30.06 sign on a church) that would likely result in the LEO refusing to arrest you, the ADA refusing to accept charges, or the judge dismissing the case without a trial.

Regards,
Chas.