So, anybody else CCW a mousegun?

[The Annoyed Man]

My son graduated from High School this morning, so I had to actually be unarmed for a while. I bought a P3AT this afternoon. I pocket carried it to a backyard crawfish boil at a friend's house this evening just to see what it was like. I hardly noticed it was there, and it was great. I will wear it on stage tomorrow during worship services. When I get home after church tomorrow, I will strap on the 3" Kimber and go about my business as usual, because for most things, the .45 is a better choice, and the truth is, it is a really nice gun, and I prefer carrying it. But is is certainly nice to know that the Keltec is available for those occasions when the Kimber simply won't work.

[dukalmighty]

Don't know if it's a mouse gun cause it's 9mm but i just bought a keltec p11 will be delivered around 6/10/08 will see how it choots then

[fm2]

However a lot of the speed out of the pocket depends on the size of the pocket; bigger pocket translates into faster draw.

I agree pocket size can affect drawspeed and a pocket that allows the gun to be drawn while holding the pistol is what we are looking for. But, a bigger pocket may allow the gun to get re-oriented causeing a more difficult access. This is where a good pocket holster shines, by keeping the gun in the same orientation, and in the pocket. If you get knocked on your back the gun could fall out of the pocket. If you carry in the back pocket and you are sitting, or on your back, you need to find a way to get your gun in play from those positions. We need to find out how our gear works in different positions and if we can be effective (get our tools in play).

The other side of pocket carry is that you can have your hand on your gun in your pocket ready to go where as it is hard to casually grab your gun at the 3 or 4 o'clock OWB position.

That is a good point about pre-emptive grip on the pistol without others aware. Consider this, If there is a unknown person that may/may not have shown his ill intent, ( you are not justified in drawing your gun), do you really want to have only one hand available to deal with him?

If you factor in having your hand on the gun in the pocket versus having to throw up the cover garment and put your hand on the gun with the JIT, then the draw times for the pocket carry become only slightly slower than for the JIT and maybe even.

I'll try time these out in the next day or two and post back. I am interested in hearing from others as well. What's the difference in your times between hands out of pocket vs hand on gun in pocket?

[sar]

got a seecamp 32 now and a seecamp 380 on order. I feel absolutely fine with them for their intended purpose. If someone's more than 7 yards from me, I'm in trouble. I can easily empty all 7 shots into a pie plate rapidly at 15 feet.

If I think im in danger, this gun is so small I can have it in my hand and still completely concealed.

Tiny, concealable, flawless construction and function.

Got a 5" kimber that mostly accompanies me in the woods.

[Txroadcyclist]

Quote: "If I can conceal and control a full-sized handgun, why downsize?"

Some folks can't - or won't.

It seems that mouse guns are indeed the everyday "primary carry gun" for a surprising percentage of CHL people, people who, by human nature, would otherwise not carry at all due to discomfort or (often simply perceived) difficulty concealing something larger.

In my view, this reduces to mental roadblocks or lack of motivation to seek and obtain appropriate gear.

I question the reasoning behind, "Have a gun." These three words seem to imply that having any gun---even a gun you are unfamiliar with or have difficulty shooting properly---is inherently better than not having a gun. I disagree; if you cannot get a weapon into play quickly enough, it may as well be left in a safe at home; if you cannot produce hits on a threat upon demand, you delay in stopping the threat and risk injuring or damaging someone or something that did not merit shooting. Mouseguns and related gear trend toward all of these undesirable directions, and provide easily-retailed "solutions" (excuses) for people who are interested in being "armed" but uninterested in expending the time, effort and resources to seek competence beyond passing a minimal state-mandated qualification.

It seems to me that one thing that has always been stressed in this forum is to carry what is comfortable to you. I carry a P3at in a WRB ankle holster. I have a .45 Colt 1911 (my dad's weapon when he was a Marine Aviator and in my mind a family heirloom), a Ruger P-95 and a Taurus Model 85. I choose to carry the P3at because it is most closely matches my lifestyle. I do practice with it regularly. I may not be able to rapidly draw my weapon and it does not have an extensive range but I do practice situational awareness and I rely on it only to escape a deadly confrontation. I took martial arts for a few years and escape was the primary motivation for learning to fight. Could this mindset put me in danger? Possibly but that is my choice. Shooting is a passion for a alot of you and thats fine but as my screen name implies, my passion lies elsewhere. I read time and again that you should carry what you're comfortable carrying but when someone mentions a carry weapon viewed by the purists as inadequate the critiques come rapidly.
Cycling is my passion and shooting maybe yours but we do share an interest in the something. Taking an elitist point a view and talking down to those who also have an interest in personal protection but whose choice of carry is something other than a Glock, Sig, Kimber or 1911 is not going to help what both of us want to achieve in the long run and that is to encourage others to take responsibility for their own protection. As the saying goes "an armed society is a polite society" not "an armed society with a 9mm or higher caliber and whose barrel length is a minimum of 3 inches and whose muzzle velocity is...," well you get the point.

[Txroadcyclist]

I just read my post and realized that I didn't make an argument for carrying my P3at and carrying it in an ankle holster, quite the opposite actually. The quotes in my post just made me angry in that they implied the those who carry "mouse guns" have virtually no experience in shooting and therefore should not be qualified to carry. I was also fixing to leave work when I logged in and typed without using my brain. To those who know me, I do that from time to time.
I and I'm sure many others that carry a P3at or other mouse guns have spent a lifetime using firearms. I know that carrying in an ankle holster slows reaction time but with situational awareness I am relying on the opportunity to use time to my advantage. I'm aware of the flaws but it is the best option for me. Any life or death confrontation will be chock full of flaws, what ifs and if I had only... A friend of mine once criticized me for carrying on my ankle until I had my weapon in a ready position before him when his untucked shirt got tangled with his hand in his attempt to draw, btw our weapons were unloaded and we both pointed in a safe direction, not at each other.
I just thought it was hypocritical to tell some that what may be right, i.e. carrying a .45 on the hip, might not be right for everyone and then criticize when they choose another option and then further imply that they could not possibly be proficient in the use of their weapon.

[fm2]

I know that carrying in an ankle holster slows reaction time but with situational awareness I am relying on the opportunity to use time to my advantage.

I think you mean draw speed, not reaction time.

I'm aware of the flaws but it is the best option for me.

That's an excellent point, becoming aware of the flaws. A lot of people new to CHL are unaware of the flaws. We need to figure out the flaws/weakness and then decide if they are acceptable, not acceptable, or how much we can adjust to shore up our defensive measures, ie..awareness, better empty hands skills, etc.

How do we figure out the weakness'es? Talking to others with experience, reading, figuring it out on our own, and validating them in the proper context.

Any life or death confrontation will be chock full of flaws, what ifs and if I had only....

Hopefully, we work toward mitigating those flaws and stacking the deck as much as we can beforehand.

[yerasimos]

It seems to me that one thing that has always been stressed in this forum is to carry what is comfortable to you.

Actually, I remember reading here that Clint Smith had said to the effect that handgun carry was supposed to be comforting (ie, reassuring), but not necessarily comfortable. Surely one of his students here can provide an exact quote (I am not one of them).

I carry a P3at in a WRB ankle holster. I have a .45 Colt 1911 (my dad's weapon when he was a Marine Aviator and in my mind a family heirloom), a Ruger P-95 and a Taurus Model 85. I choose to carry the P3at because it is most closely matches my lifestyle. I do practice with it regularly. I may not be able to rapidly draw my weapon

If you cannot draw your P3at rapidly, then kindly and objectively reconsider whether your carry of the P3at can truly accomplish what you require from it.

and it does not have an extensive range but I do practice situational awareness and I rely on it only to escape a deadly confrontation. I took martial arts for a few years and escape was the primary motivation for learning to fight.

At any given instant, you can fight, or run, but rarely both. Both have their place; sometimes one can set up for the other.

Could this mindset put me in danger? Possibly but that is my choice. Shooting is a passion for a alot of you and thats fine but as my screen name implies, my passion lies elsewhere.

We all have our favorite hobbies. Each of us must decide which degree of skill we wish to aspire to, and count the cost. That said, an IPSC grandmaster shooting enthusiast will enjoy certain skill advantages over the non-adept in a gunfight. Those advantages may or may not be decisive in the (gun)fight’s outcome.

I read time and again that you should carry what you're comfortable carrying but when someone mentions a carry weapon viewed by the purists as inadequate the critiques come rapidly.
Cycling is my passion and shooting maybe yours but we do share an interest in the something. Taking an elitist point a view and talking down to those who also have an interest in personal protection but whose choice of carry is something other than a Glock, Sig, Kimber or 1911 is not going to help what both of us want to achieve in the long run and that is to encourage others to take responsibility for their own protection.

This has less to do with the specific hardware, and more to do with the situational awareness that you mentioned before. But this thread seems to be focused upon the hardware aspect of personal protection, for better or worse.

As the saying goes "an armed society is a polite society" not "an armed society with a 9mm or higher caliber and whose barrel length is a minimum of 3 inches and whose muzzle velocity is...," well you get the point.

Perhaps I have not made my point clear enough, so let me try again:

I consider physical readiness as a continuum. In the context of carrying a concealed handgun, maximum readiness would be weapon in hand, in battery, fully loaded and pointed/sighted upon a perceived threat, likely with the slack taken out from the trigger. In other words, this individual is on the cusp of sending a bullet downrange exactly where he wants, with his choice of sight picture appropriate to the threat/situation. Minimum readiness would be the same individual, with the weapon effectively out of reach; for the purpose of discussion and generosity, let us say five seconds between threat stimulus and achieving maximum readiness as described above.

Various modes of handgun carry are positioned somewhere between maximum and minimum readiness. I believe that the strong-side belt carry methods are positioned closest to maximum readiness than nearly any other type of carry, as the hands generally travel the least distance to acquire initial grip upon the handgun, and a well-chosen cover garment can be easily displaced. After acquiring grip upon the handgun, the handgun must only ascend the torso and extend forward as appropriate (this extension may be null) before a shot can be fired. Furthermore, this mode of handgun access does not impair the use of the lower body to improve position relative to the threat, nor does it have to be occluded when seated.

With alternative carry methods (ankle, small-of-the-back, pocket), the hand must typically travel a longer distance to acquire initial grip, or get pushed into a pocket that may or may not accommodate immediate grip acquisition, but will likely temporarily restrict the arm when the hand is in the pocket. (Regarding trouser pockets, I reckon urban dandy-wear like Prada and Armani will be less accommodating than a $20 pair of loose-fit work trousers that will never be advertised or promoted in Men’s Health.) After acquiring grip, the hand/handgun must typically travel that same longer distance again, in addition to torso ascent and appropriate extension, before engaging a threat. Furthermore, the extra limb and body articulation sends a more obvious message to the threat regarding the CHLer’s intent, and this threat may move to foul the CHLer’s draw. The extra time required for these alternative draws plays to the threat’s advantage and the CHLer’s disadvantage. Finally, the extra reach or crouching needed for some of these draws impairs movement and “get-off-the-X� activity that may be more critical to the CHLer’s survival than draw speed.

My point of contention is not about the hardware itself, though I will admit that my stereotype of guns such as (but not limited to) Kahrs, Kel-Tecs, Walther PPKs and 3� barreled 1911s condemns their patterns of finickiness and unreliability, so I choose to avoid these, as well as the mouseguns. In fairness, if/when these firearms do function properly, the terminal effects upon humans may be just as variable as those from more reliable firearms. These effects may range from a .22 killing a threat instantly, to another threat absorbing dozens of “major caliber� bullets from IDPA-approved handguns, with a couple of 12 gauge rounds as well, and living to stand trial.

Again, my point of contention is not necessarily with mouseguns themselves or their cartridges or their advocates. Rather, my primary point of contention is initial weapon placement, which is implicit in the case for mouseguns. I seek to challenge and repudiate the notion that carrying a mousegun on the ankle, small-of-the-back, pocket, etc, is functionally equivalent to carrying a Glock or full-size 1911---or the same mousegun---on strong-side belt. In the context of immediate readiness from initiative deficit and reaction to a threat, they are not equivalent.

[Txroadcyclist]

yerasimos

While I respect your opinion, you still seem to be talking down to me. You seem to have disdain for those (dandies) who frequent Starbuck's, wears Prada or Armani, reads Men's Health an carries a "mouse gun". With the exception of carrying the "mouse gun" thats not me but I will defend those that do in the hope that more people of every race, education and social class who are law abiding citizens will carry and thereby cause every would be criminal to think twice before committing a criminal act.

You implied that those that carry a "mouse gun" do not possess the skills to properly handle their weapon and I'm saying many of us do practice and are familiar with how our pistols shoots and are also aware of its limitations.

As I stated in a subsequent post, I had my weapon in a ready position before a friend who wore his on his hip. I'm not saying I can do this every time but it does point out that things can happen even when adrenaline is not coursing through one's veins. In your latest post, you mentioned crouching to retrieve a pistol from an ankle holster. I can't speak for others who carry on their ankle but I practice lifting my left leg (weak side with the weapon on the inside of the ankle) to draw my pistol from its holster to minimize time on the "X". Am I aware that this also could cause a problem? Again yes, I could lose my balance but again in an adrenaline charged moment, anything could happen. I do practice to try to minimize and shoot regularly to stay familiar with how my carry weapon shoots. I know that others who carry a "mouse gun" practice as well, just like I'm sure that there are a few out there who carry their .45 on their hips who seldom practice.

I've read that some people carry their weapon on them even in their home and thats fine but there are others who choose to just keep their doors locked and not carry their weapon at all times. I just ask that you respect one's decision and not talk down to them.

You and I probably have alot more in common then you think but your country boy pride is preventing you from seeing people how they really are. Now how about I school you in Fishing?

[Excaliber]

At this point, this discussion thread appears to be generating more heat than light.

As a former LEO and commander of the major crimes forensics team for a 200 officer police department, I've had ample opportunity to make a lot of observations on real world incidents while my teams were drawing chalk lines around bodies and photographing shell cases. I've given a lot of thought over the years to the issues discussed here, and I've arrived at some opinions that are consistent with what I saw in the street and that work for me. I'll share some of the highlights here in the hope that they will be helpful to those who may not have the opportunity to gain their own personal impressions from as many encounters where firearms have come into play.

My first hand introduction to the effects of small caliber handgun fire came early on a Saturday morning at the very beginning of my law enforcement career when I was assigned to a medical assist call. A middle aged male living in a high activity area had reportedly received a cut to his forehead and needed transport to the hospital. I found him with what appeared to be a small cut located on his forehead about 1 1/2 inches above the browline and centered between his eyes. He was relatively coherent and alert, considering his hung over condition from alcohol ingestion the previous evening. I dropped him off at the ER, where he waited his turn for examination.

About 40 minutes later the senior ER surgeon requested I return to the hospital because he had something to show me. When I met with him, he showed me a side-on x-ray image of a skull with a white blob located approximately 2 inches into the brain behind the forehead. We agreed it looked like either a .25 or a .32 projectile. I asked how the patient was doing, and he pointed the way to one of the rooms where I found the man I had transported laughing and joking with the nurses. He and I had a bit of a conversation about how the bullet got into his head, and after a few implausible nice tries, he finally came clean. It turns out his girlfriend had become so enraged that he had come home drunk again that she had shot him at point blank range right between the eyes. He responded by going to bed for the night. He only called for help because he had a worse than usual headache when he woke up about 6 hours later.

I asked the doctor what the course of treatment and prognosis were. He advised that he would put a band aid over the wound, give him some antibiotics, and send him home because attempting to remove the slug would do more damage than leaving it in place, and the patient would recover quickly with very few ill effects because the bullet hadn't hit anything important that the patient was using much anyway. When I encountered the same gentleman by chance over a decade later, we shared some reminiscences about the incident and he proudly showed me the scars from the 3 additional small caliber bullet wounds he had picked up during another social encounter in the intervening years. They didn't appear to be interfering with his lifestyle any more than the first one did.

Needless to say, they don't all turn out that way. I've seen my share of folks who expired from small caliber (smaller than .38/.357/9mm) wounds. However, it's significant that the majority I saw were folks who were attacked with these weapons, and not where they were successfully used for defense. I've also seen incidents (yes, that's plural) where projectiles from these guns fail to penetrate the skull in a slightly less than dead on impact angle, travel around the skull just under the skin, and exit near the ear with no serious damage done. I've seen folks who were shot 12 or 14 times with small caliber bullets before they even noticed. None of these were confidence inspiring when I looked at these calibers from a defensive tool standpoint, despite their very attractive convenience factor.

With that bit of background, here are my observations on this topic that apply to CHL weapon selection and carry modes:

1. Large, determined (or drugged / crazy / angry) adversaries very often don't stop what they're doing when you point a gun at them, even when it's a big gun. It's not unusual for them to tell you to go ahead and shoot. They are especially unimpressed with small guns because they've seen so many people shot with them with little permanent damage, and they don't hesitate to attack into them.

2. People who are shot, even with large caliber handguns, don't react like they do on TV where most folks get their expectations from. A handgun round will NEVER lift a person off his feet and propel him 6 feet through the air and through the plate glass window behind him like in the movies. (Think about it and the laws of physics: If that happened at the terminal end, the same amount of energy would be directed at the originating end and the shooter would experience similar physical displacement). One of the major training points that has to be repeatedly hammered into new LEO's is to expect that the threat will show no initial reaction to being shot, and will continue to pose a threat until either a round penetrates a critical area of his central nervous system or he loses enough blood to lose consciousness from hypovolemic shock or inadequate oxygenation of the brain. Even after a gunshot shatters the heart and circulation stops, enough oxygen remains in the brain for a person to continue effective action for somewhere between about 15 and 25 seconds. That's a long time if he's shooting, stabbing, or clubbing you. This reality applies to each adversary you face in a multiple attacker situation.

3. If you need to fire a handgun to protect yourself and the projectiles don't make an immediate dissuasive impression on the bad guy, he won't send you a thank you note. What happens next won't be pretty and you won't enjoy it. Even if it turns out that he dies hours or days later from his wounds, that won't make up for what happened to you in the meantime.

2. Bad guys react very quickly and aggressively when an intended victim moves in a manner that indicates resistance. They will not mistake a move to grab for a weapon in an ankle holster for a sudden need to be tying one's shoe. If you're going to try something like this, you need to either anticipate the need so the draw occurs before the confrontation phase of the incident begins, or you need a really good act to make what you're doing look like it's not what it really is until you've brought the weapon to bear. Good luck. I'm not talented enough to rely on either of these options, so I don't use ankle holsters.

3. Bad news: As a rule of thumb, if an effective draw and center mass hit takes more than 1.5 seconds with your concealed carry arrangement, you need a better plan. Worse news: In lots of circumstances, even that time frame is marginal or too slow.

4. Small caliber weapons (the ones referred to as "mouseguns") are extremely unreliable for use in disabling human adversaries in time to do you any good. While no handheld weapon projectile will stop every bad guy every time, there's clearly more than enough solid evidence out there to be able to say with certainty that big bullets are much more likely than little bullets to do what you need done in the time you'll have to do it. The plain fact is they carry more energy, penetrate more reliably, and create larger wound channels that disrupt more organs and cause more bleeding. I like stacking the odds in my favor, and reserving small calibers for training, plinking, and rodent elimination. In my opinion based on my street experience, anything under .38 SPCL / 9MM parabellum is inadequate for CHL personal protection purposes. I know that there are special people out there with special circumstances and requirements where this generality might not be applicable. With that being said, if you're not a CIA or Delta Force operative or something pretty similar, you won't go far wrong by following the above rule of thumb until you've had a chance to gain enough real world experience that would make it reasonable to strike out in a different direction on your own.

5. Bad guys often operate in groups. If it takes a lot of shots to slow down one, make sure you've got a viable plan for reloading as necessary and delivering the number of shots required to deal with each of them. If you need all 7 rounds in your gun to stop the first threat and the second one gets you, that still counts as a loss in my book. This gets pretty challenging when you really get into the requirements, time frames, and options regardless of your weapon choice. Small caliber guns add too much complexity and uncertainty to this situation for my comfort.

6. Choice of carry weapon should be influenced first by selecting one that is capable of delivering the results you need. Selecting for comfort first is a lot like buying a Prius to haul your 30 foot house trailer on vacation because the Prius is better on gas and leaves more room in the garage.

7. If one understands the need to prepare for the possibility of being faced with a deadly force encounter, one would be well advised to prepare in a way that gives one as many advantages and as few disadvantages as can be determined in advance.

8. If carry comfort is an overriding concern, consider carrying OC (pepper spray) in addition (or - gasp! - instead). It's lighter, has fewer legal implications, and will be more likely than a small caliber handgun to temporarily disable one or more close in attackers fast enough in many situations to let you get away in one piece.

I hope this somewhat long post will be of some help to those who have been a bit confused by all the conflicting information out there. With that said, the bottom line is: you make your own choices, and you live with the results.

[Txroadcyclist]

I know that carrying in an ankle holster slows reaction time but with situational awareness I am relying on the opportunity to use time to my advantage.

I think you mean draw speed, not reaction time.

Thank you fm2 that is what I meant

[Txroadcyclist]

Okay, based on what both yerasimos and excaliber are telling me I am going to start carrying oc pepper spray. As an executive at a small manufacturing company, I must abide be the dress code and wear my shirt tucked in, but also having been there 14 years I also know its impractical to wear a jacket. I did try wearing a tuckable IWB holster briefly but found this uncomfortable as well from frequent leaning, squatting and bending over. My attempt was to find a means to both carry and be comfortable at work.

I hope I don't sound unappreciative of the comments or sound like I'm upset over spilt milk. I'm honestly not and I am willing to try alternatives offered. If pepper spray is a better means of defense then my P3at then I will give it a try.

[NcongruNt]

Okay, based on what both yerasimos and excaliber are telling me I am going to start carrying oc pepper spray. As an executive at a small manufacturing company, I must abide be the dress code and wear my shirt tucked in, but also having been there 14 years I also know its impractical to wear a jacket. I did try wearing a tuckable IWB holster briefly but found this uncomfortable as well from frequent leaning, squatting and bending over. My attempt was to find a means to both carry and be comfortable at work.

I hope I don't sound unappreciative of the comments or sound like I'm upset over spilt milk. I'm honestly not and I am willing to try alternatives offered. If pepper spray is a better means of defense then my P3at then I will give it a try.

I would carry both, really. Between carrying a .380 like the P3AT or nothing, I'd carry the .380. You can improve your options with both the pepper spray and the P3AT, but in your situation, I don't think getting rid of the gun is the best course of action. It gives you a chance in a situation where you may have no other option, and getting rid of that option isn't a prudent course of action, IMO. As for me, I have carried OC with a keyring attachment, and carried it with my keys that way. While .380 isn't the most powerful round, I'd take it to nothing any day if it were my only fighting chance.

[Smokewagon]

I bet a bad guy would rather be sprayed than shot...

[Greybeard]

Excaliber - Ya expended quite some time and thought on that post. Thanks for the contribution. Especially good point about the OC possibly having quicker "stopping" effect than small, light, slow-moving bullets ...
-----------------------------------------
Earlier Quote: "I've always smiled at the expression "friends don't let friends carry mouseguns,"

Yeah, we had a bunch of t-shirts made up years ago with that - but it was followed by "(unless they would not otherwise carry at all)".