Almost had to draw on someone today.

[Show Killer]

So, I was cruising along in the right hand lane and this guy in a GMC Jimmy starts cutting over into my lane and was about to hit the drivers side front of the truck. I tap the horn to let him know i was there and he corrects. Then he speeds up to get in front of me. We get stopped at a red light, he opens his door, leans out and starts saying stuff. I just pointed to him in a "just stay in your truck" kind of manner. Well, that made him pretty mad. He gets completely out of his truck and starts walking back towards me. I lean forward and grab the pistol grip of my trusty Glock 30 (it was IWB @ about 3:30) and prepare to draw. The guy gets about 3 steps and then stops. The light had turned green and everyone behind me was honking at him. He just turned around and got back in his truck.

I just don't understand some people. This all happened at 3:00 in the afternoon going south on 281 at the Encino Rio Blvd. light.

I've had my CHL for going on 4 years and it's the 1st time i've had to prepare to actually draw down on someone.

[txinvestigator]

So, I was cruising along in the right hand lane and this guy in a GMC Jimmy starts cutting over into my lane and was about to hit the drivers side front of the truck. I tap the horn to let him know i was there and he corrects. Then he speeds up to get in front of me. We get stopped at a red light, he opens his door, leans out and starts saying stuff. I just pointed to him in a "just stay in your truck" kind of manner. Well, that made him pretty mad. He gets completely out of his truck and starts walking back towards me. I lean forward and grab the pistol grip of my trusty Glock 30 (it was IWB @ about 3:30) and prepare to draw. The guy gets about 3 steps and then stops. The light had turned green and everyone behind me was honking at him. He just turned around and got back in his truck.

I just don't understand some people. This all happened at 3:00 in the afternoon going south on 281 at the Encino Rio Blvd. light.

I've had my CHL for going on 4 years and it's the 1st time i've had to prepare to actually draw down on someone.

Had you drawn your weapon on him you could have incurred a lot of trouble for yourself. I wasn't there, but from your description of the events I don't believe you had a deadly force or threat of deadly force situation.

Do you carry OC? What lane were you in? How much space did you leave between you and him?

[jbirds1210]

Sounds like the situation turned out alright.....I am glad that it did.
I would love to use your scenario to ask the forum a question. I understand that we all have a duty to protect ourselves from attack, that is clear to me!
If we are in our vehicle in a similar situation ,don't we currently have a duty to retreat? It is my understanding that it is mandatory to attempt removing ourselves from the situation. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am in no way suggesting that someone should risk attack, I am asking in the perspective of a court...would they buy this shooting? I do not think they would. As always.....if I am wrong, please be gentle and steer me on the right path! Thanks.
Jason

[Show Killer]

So, I was cruising along in the right hand lane and this guy in a GMC Jimmy starts cutting over into my lane and was about to hit the drivers side front of the truck. I tap the horn to let him know i was there and he corrects. Then he speeds up to get in front of me. We get stopped at a red light, he opens his door, leans out and starts saying stuff. I just pointed to him in a "just stay in your truck" kind of manner. Well, that made him pretty mad. He gets completely out of his truck and starts walking back towards me. I lean forward and grab the pistol grip of my trusty Glock 30 (it was IWB @ about 3:30) and prepare to draw. The guy gets about 3 steps and then stops. The light had turned green and everyone behind me was honking at him. He just turned around and got back in his truck.

I just don't understand some people. This all happened at 3:00 in the afternoon going south on 281 at the Encino Rio Blvd. light.

I've had my CHL for going on 4 years and it's the 1st time i've had to prepare to actually draw down on someone.

Had you drawn your weapon on him you could have incurred a lot of trouble for yourself. I wasn't there, but from your description of the events I don't believe you had a deadly force or threat of deadly force situation.

Do you carry OC? What lane were you in? How much space did you leave between you and him?

I do not carry OC. I was in the right lane the whole time. When we came to a stop I was a good 2 - 3 car lengths behind him. I doubt i would've had to shoot. If he would've come up to the door I would've told him to get back or I would be forced to protect myself. Had I actually pulled the pistol I think he would've got the point and returned to his truck.

Thing is, the guy was acting like it was my fault. All I did was give 2 light taps on the horn to let him know he was coming into my lane. I couldn't really hit the brakes to avoid him because there was a Chevy truck behind me and he almost for sure would've hit me had I slammed on the brakes. The guy had plenty of room in front of me to get in my lane. He was just doing it too quickly and almost hit me. The closest car in my lane was a good 100' in front of me.

[jbirds1210]

Thanks again for the scenario. I was not there and can only compare your experiece to similar ones I have endured!

Lock your doors and roll up the window. Look straight and drive away when you have a route of escape. Producing your pistol would likely have a negative outcome, especially since the man had not threatened you in any way. What if he was coming to tell you he was sorry and just happened to have a scowl on his face? I am a pretty friendly fellow but I have been told that I am not friendly looking (I do not always agree with this).

Not bashing you in any way nor trying to be a Monday morning quaterback. I am simply running through the situation in my mind and using this as a refresher to what "I" need to do in similar circumstances.

I believe that had the man starting breaking your window or prying your door open with a bar the situation would then call for deadly force.
Jason

[Flatland2D]

It sounds like everything worked out. I would probably feel for my gun in a situation like that. I'm not saying I'd draw it, but just prepare myself discretely.

I was told by my CHL instructor that the first use of deadly force (by a CHL I believe) was due to a case of road rage. Some guy accidentally irritated another guy, who got out of his car, grabbed the other guy through his window, and punched him severely. Fortunately the man being attacked had his gun and used "force" to stop him. By that time he was beaten so bad he permanently lost vision in one eye. That's the way my instructor told the story at least. It doesn't take much imagination to see this happening in your situation had the light not turned green and there wasn't anyone else around.

[Charles L. Cotton]

This is a general comment and is not directed to Show Killer's scenario.

I know this will sound counter-intuitive, but if there is a chance you may have to shoot, don't roll the car window up, get it down quickly! If you have to fire through a car window, you may well have a face full of glass shards, including in your eyes and/or eyelids.

Chas.

[Commander]

That incident of Road Rage ocurred in Dallas. The "offended" driver walked back to the vehicle of the "offendee" and proceeded to beat him severely about the face through the open driver window. The "offendee", one of the first CHL holders, drew and fired and as I recall, killed the attacker. Being the very "first", it drew a lot of media attention. I don't recall the extent of the CHL holders injury, but I do recall a post from TXInvestigator that said the family of the deceased sued the CHL holder.

[stevie_d_64]

This is a general comment and is not directed to Show Killer's scenario.

I know this will sound counter-intuitive, but if there is a chance you may have to shoot, don't roll the car window up, get it down quickly! If you have to fire through a car window, you may well have a face full of glass shards, including in your eyes and/or eyelids.

Chas.

You got that right...

But isn't it amazing how many incidences like this happen, and nobody actually gets hurt, or shot for that matter...Every single day...

But when you think about it though Charles...Would you think that by rolling down the window, that action escalates, or sends a "primal" signal to the dunderhead coming at you in a situation like this that you wish to "discuss" the issue further???

Not that that particular aspect causes me to hesitate defending myself if the approach demonstrates an intent to physically harm me...At which point, that window may come down if I cannot safely disengage from that person...

[nitrogen]

2 days before I got my CHL, I was almost run off the road by someone. My fianceé and I were driving to dinner, when in the left lane on George Bush Turnpike, doing 80. He wanted to go a lot faster. He was tailgaiting me, about 4-6 inches from my bumper. Considering the traffic to the right of me was going much slower, I didn't feel the need to move over. (I'm an ass like that I guess.)

Well, he sees an opening, guns it and pulls into my lane. I honk, and he veers suddenly. I slam on the accellerator, and manage to get away via the breakdown lane.

Had he run me off the road, I probably would have jumped out of my car and drawn on him. If he had gotten out of his car at all, and made any agressive move at all, i'd have put 2 center mass and one in the head without even a thought.

I'm glad It didn't come to that. The Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving class I took a few years ago really came in handy.
It's training I think everyone should take. It saved my life, and possibly the guy in the truck's life as well.

[KBCraig]

This was the Gordon Hale case, in February 1996. Mr. Hale was the first CHL to use deadly force, the first to be arrest, first to be charged with murder, and the first to be no-billed by the grand jury.

The case re-affirmed established case law, that blows about the head and face constitute deadly force and justify deadly force in response.

Here's a Houston Chronicle article that sums it up well:

1:04 PM 3/20/1996
Licensed owner of concealed gun cleared in death
Dallas panel nobills driver who shot another in argument

By JIM SCHUTZE
Copyright 1996 Houston Chronicle Dallas Bureau

DALLAS -- A grand jury voted Wednesday not to indict the first Texan to shoot and kill someone with his licensed concealed handgun.

The Dallas County grand jury ruled that Gordon Hale III, 42, of suburban Grand Prairie committed no crime Feb. 21 when he shot and killed Kenny Tavai, 33, an unarmed delivery truck driver during an argument in heavy freeway traffic. It was the first fatal shooting under the state's new law that allows ordinary citizens to become licensed to carry a concealed handgun.

Within hours of Wednesday's decision, the principal legislative architect of the so-called right-to-carry legislation had fired off an angry press release castigating critics who had used the Tavai killing to attack the new law.

"I am disgusted ... by the initial reaction to this incident by opponents of the concealed handgun law," said state Sen. Jerry Patterson, R-Pasadena. In his written statement, Patterson specifically accused state Sen. Rodney Ellis, D-Houston, of having used the Tavai killing as a vehicle for his opposition to the gun law.

"The `I told you so' crowd was wrong once again," Patterson said. "Their ignorance of the laws of deadly force is apparent."

Ellis fired back with his own emotional written statement.

"I care about this issue because gun violence is a serious threat to the safety of the people of Texas," he said in part.

"I am worried about the safety of my 8-year-old daughter, Nicole. In 1994, approximately 1,500 Texans were killed as a result of gun violence, and I simply do not believe that more guns on the streets will make my daughter safer," Ellis said.

Members of the victim's family could not be reached for comment. Tavai's relatives were angry over the shooting when it happened and told reporters at the time that they believed Dallas police did the right thing by bringing homicide charges against Hale.

Police arrested Hale after the shooting because they believed the altercation between Hale and Tavai had not justified the use of deadly force. A spokesman said Dallas Police Chief Ben Click would have no comment on the grand jury finding Wednesday.

The shooting of Tavai, following an incident in which the rear-view mirrors of vehicles driven by the two men clicked together in tight traffic, drew immediate national attention.

Hale, who works for a welding supply company, obtained one of the new concealed weapon permits because his job requires him to drive a truck carrying expensive equipment all over the Dallas area, according to his lawyer, Vincent W. Perini.

The incident occurred when trucks driven by the two men tapped lightly against each other in traffic on a crowded freeway in west Dallas. According to witnesses, Tavai left his own delivery vehicle and confronted Hale in his pickup. Tavai hit Hale one to three times in the face and shoulder, police said. Hale lifted a .40-caliber handgun from beneath a coat on the front seat of his pickup and shot Tavai once in the chest. Tavai died three hours later.

Hale's lawyer said Wednesday that the grand jury had taken special pains to examine all of the evidence and listen to all of the witnesses, going beyond normal grand jury practice.

"From my observation, the grand jury proceeded in the knowledge that this case was being watched and was receiving a lot of publicity, and so the grand jury and the district attorney took pains to do a good job," Perini said. He said the grand jury interviewed all of the witnesses who had seen the shooting happen in traffic.

Grand jury rules do not allow lawyers to argue in person before the grand jury, but Perini did send in a lengthy written argument -- acceptable practice in Dallas County. Perini included a statement from a forensic pathologist concerning the severe injury that can result from fist blows to the face. He said he also pointed out that Texas law on deadly force permits the use of deadly force to prevent serious bodily injury short of fatal injury.

"Hale was blocked in traffic on all sides," Perini said. "He had dropped back and was writing down Tavai's plates and his courtesy number, where you're supposed to call to report bad driving."

Perini said Tavai approached Hale, who was sitting behind the wheel of his pickup, and told him not to call the police or the courtesy number, then grabbed Hale by the front of his shirt and pulled him toward the open window while hitting him in the face.

"You can shoot to prevent serious bodily injury," Perini said. "You shouldn't have to decide, `Well, he's going to break my nose, knock my jaw out and detach my retina, but I don't think he'll kill me.' And you don't."

Hale declined to comment after the grand jury finding, but his father, Gordon Hale Jr., said he was overjoyed.

"We're elated," he said, speaking from his son's home. "I have always been a person who thought a man had a right to defend himself. My son was attacked illegally, and he acted to defend himself. He did the right thing."

The father said his son and his entire family were sorry that someone had to lose his life.

"A person is dead," he said, "and that's always too bad."

[Show Killer]

Just to add a couple details.

My doors were locked, I always keep them locked when driving. Both windows were about 1/3rd the way down.

And as Flatland said. I didn't draw, I had my hand on the grip just in case. The guy definately wasn't coming towards me to say he was sorry.

[stevie_d_64]

2 days before I got my CHL, I was almost run off the road by someone. My fianceé and I were driving to dinner, when in the left lane on George Bush Turnpike, doing 80. He wanted to go a lot faster. He was tailgaiting me, about 4-6 inches from my bumper. Considering the traffic to the right of me was going much slower, I didn't feel the need to move over. (I'm an ass like that I guess.)

My wife thinks I'm a lot like that too...

I just tell her I am an aggressively defensive driver...Well...Its true!

[Crossfire]

All of this reminds me of an incident that happened a year or so ago. I was on my way home from the grocery store with my college age daughter when we witnessed a hit and run accident. The guy who caused it had been speeding (in the rain) and generally being stupid, when he lost control of his pickup and spun it around into the oncoming lane of traffic. He hit this little Toyota and did some pretty major damage to the car, with only minor damage to the rear end of his truck. Lots of people stopped to aid the driver of the Toyota, so when he whipped it around and took off right in front of me, I decided we needed to get close enough to write down his plate number.

Like I said, this guy took off like a bat out of hell, so we chased him for quite a bit before he finally came to a stop at a major intersection. I was about two car lengths behind him, writing down his plate number while my daughter was dialing 911, when he got out of the truck with a baseball bat and started coming back to my car. Since this concerned me somewhat... I said to my daughter, "Baby, hand me my Glock from the back seat". That's when she said "Mom, this is MY car and I don't have a gun on the back seat!"

Well, that just sorta took ALL the wind out of my sails! I put that little Jetta in reverse and took off, leaving the doofus standing in the rain holding his ball bat and cursing me.

What did we learn from this? A) ALWAYS CARRY! and B) Remember whose car you are in!

[Charles L. Cotton]

Kevin:
I recall this Hale incident all too well. It happened less than 2 months after new CHL's were effective (1/1/06) and the venue was terrible! Dallas PD and Senator Royce West, a former Dallas PD officer, were strongly opposed to SB60, so we knew it was going to degenerate into a media circus. It did. All of the media throughout the state were reporting that a "minor fender-bender resulted into a deadly gunfight" after two men argued and we could only expect more of the same. Not a word was mentioned about Mr. Hale firing shortly before he fell unconscious from the beating. Intellectual honesty has never been a strong point of modern media types.

I may be confusing this with the Sastrup (sp ?) case in Austin where it was presented to multiple Grand Juries, but I believe Mr. Hale's case was either presented to two GJ's, or was there was a full court press by the Dallas County DA's office, at the insistence of the Dallas PD and purportedly Sen. West. I actually believe CHL opponents were glad this man was dead - it gave them a ralling cry.

Regards,
Chas.