Almost had to draw on someone today.

[Charles L. Cotton]

What did we learn from this? A) ALWAYS CARRY! and B) Remember whose car you are in!

Radio transmission during an "officer assist" call:

Dispatch: 941, return to the station.
941: Negative
Dispatch: 941, return to the station immediately!
941: Negative!
Patrol Lt.: 941, what's the first rule of a gunfight?
941: 941 en route to the station.

Unfortunately, it does happen.

Chas.

[flintknapper]

So, I was cruising along in the right hand lane and this guy in a GMC Jimmy starts cutting over into my lane and was about to hit the drivers side front of the truck. I tap the horn to let him know i was there and he corrects. Then he speeds up to get in front of me. We get stopped at a red light, he opens his door, leans out and starts saying stuff. I just pointed to him in a "just stay in your truck" kind of manner. Well, that made him pretty mad. He gets completely out of his truck and starts walking back towards me. I lean forward and grab the pistol grip of my trusty Glock 30 (it was IWB @ about 3:30) and prepare to draw. The guy gets about 3 steps and then stops. The light had turned green and everyone behind me was honking at him. He just turned around and got back in his truck.

I just don't understand some people. This all happened at 3:00 in the afternoon going south on 281 at the Encino Rio Blvd. light.

I've had my CHL for going on 4 years and it's the 1st time i've had to prepare to actually draw down on someone.

Had you drawn your weapon on him you could have incurred a lot of trouble for yourself. I wasn't there, but from your description of the events I don't believe you had a deadly force or threat of deadly force situation.

Do you carry OC? What lane were you in? How much space did you leave between you and him?

Just what I was thinking.

My trouble with it (the way this is written), is that the CHL holders first thought was to reach for his weapon. Absent any visual clues (weapon in the hand of the other driver, reaching into his pocket, etc..), or lacking a clear verbal threat, then one's first reaction should not be to "prepare to draw".

To make matters worse, the whole incident stemmed from a traffic mishap. Anytime I go out into the "general public" armed, I feel an increased responsibility to "let things slide". I know that the CHL holder in this instance...did nothing to instigate the matter, but we need to be careful about making ANY gestures or saying anything that could be misinterpreted.

Next, we see a post from a member stating that if someone made a threating move toward his vehicle he'd respond with "two to center mass, then one to the head" (Mozambique). I'm sorry, but that sounds more like "bravado" than common sense.

Folks, if you can just ignore the other person, drive away, or even say you're sorry (wrong or not)........then you will have done the best thing possible.

Of all of the places you might have to defend yourself from, the confines of a vehicle would be mighty close to the last place you'd want to be.

Hope all this doesn't come across as too harsh, but the actions of every CHL holder reflect upon the rest of us.

Just my .02

[Bubba]

Been there, these idiots are always on the road somewhere. In some places
I drive with one hand on the wheel and the other hand on Kim !

:)

[txinvestigator]

Had he run me off the road, I probably would have jumped out of my car and drawn on him. If he had gotten out of his car at all, and made any agressive move at all, i'd have put 2 center mass and one in the head without even a thought.

No offense, but that would easily get you an indictment. Deadly Force is not justified when another person "makes an agressive move towards you".

I am with Flintknapper here.........a person threatening you with non-deadly force does not justify you to use deadly force, and in most cases would not justify threatening to use deadly force as per TPC 9.04.

Imagine a traffic altercation and the other guy gets out and walks towards your vehicle. You "draw down" on him, so he "gets the point and returns to his truck" with your license plate number and a call to the police that some crazy peson just pulled a gun on him when he got out to apologize for cutting him off. He then goes on to describe your gun.

The police then arrest you for one of several charges.

I would love to use your scenario to ask the forum a question. I understand that we all have a duty to protect ourselves from attack, that is clear to me!

Uhh, no. That is not correct at all under the law.

If we are in our vehicle in a similar situation ,don't we currently have a duty to retreat? It is my understanding that it is mandatory to attempt removing ourselves from the situation. Please correct me if I am wrong.

you are correct here. DF is only justified to protect yourself IF a reasonable person in your situation would not have retreated.

[nitrogen]

I see where you're coming from. I at the time viewed someone trying to run me off the road as trying to kill me. Someone making an aggressive move after already trying to kill me in my eyes is a threat, especially where my futire wife is concerned.

As far as retreating, there doesn't seem to be a lot of places I can retreat to on the median of a busy freeway, especially if my car is disabled, and especially if I am injured, or my fianceé is.

Just describing what was going through my mind at the time. I appreciate teh warning, though.

[Paladin]

A 2oz can of Fox is pretty good for these situations.

The other guy was definitely wrong, but unless he gives you a real reason to shoot him... you can't legally draw down on 'em. But you could palm a 2oz can of Fox in your hand and spray the idiot if he makes a move at you.

[Photoman]

A few questions....

1. Why would you shoot through a closed window? I can see that if the attacker was armed and about to shoot, but that was not the case presented.

2. Use of OC spray in a confined area seems like a good way to get yourself gassed also. Is the use of OC spray considered assault in TX?

[Flatland2D]

My trouble with it (the way this is written), is that the CHL holders first thought was to reach for his weapon. Absent any visual clues (weapon in the hand of the other driver, reaching into his pocket, etc..), or lacking a clear verbal threat, then one's first reaction should not be to "prepare to draw".

I'm interested to hear input from other members if they were in a situation like Mr. Hale's. Let's say some other driver is being a jerk and you unknowingly do something to make him mad. He gets out and begins approaching your car unarmed, but his size alone is a little threatening. He doesn't look like he's coming to apologize. At what point would you feel for your gun, or draw (assuming if you don't stop him he will attack you)?

I personally don't see anything wrong with discretely feeling for your gun if you can do so without drawing attention and in a non-threatening manner. If you wait till the attacker is bludgening you to death to feel for your gun you'd probably be lucky to get a shot off. I know retreat should be your first plan of action, but what if you're stuck in traffic, or your car was disabled in an accident with the attacker?

Good points about the OC spray. I really need to look into getting myself and my wife some of that.

[one eyed fatman]

am with Flintknapper here.........a person threatening you with non-deadly force does not justify you to use deadly force, and in most cases would not justify threatening to use deadly force as per TPC 9.04.

And what is non-deadly force? Do I dig out and start reading my book of rules while being threatened or hit in the face? If someone gets out of their car and says I'm going to kill you is that non-deadly force? Face it, if you get into a situation your going to have to figure out on your own if it's non-deadly force or not. Good luck to everyone of us on that one.

[stevie_d_64]

Interesting how Austin seems to be the grand jury shopping capital of...uhhhh...

Well, you know what I mean...

[nitrogen]

am with Flintknapper here.........a person threatening you with non-deadly force does not justify you to use deadly force, and in most cases would not justify threatening to use deadly force as per TPC 9.04.

And what is non-deadly force? Do I dig out and start reading my book of rules while being threatened or hit in the face? If someone gets out of their car and says I'm going to kill you is that non-deadly force? Face it, if you get into a situation your going to have to figure out on your own if it's non-deadly force or not. Good luck to everyone of us on that one.

That was kind of my point. I see what TXinvestigator is saying; it could look bad. As this took place in Plano, my chances would be worse than in other places grand-jury wise.

But honestly, if someone tries to run me off the road, I consider that deadly force. I'm not sure what the law, a judge, or jury would consider it.
Had I been alone, I probably would not be in "pappa bear" mode, and not be as protective as I am when my fianceé is around.

[JohnKSa]

nitrogen,

Trying to run you off the road at high speed is deadly force. You would be justified in using deadly force to prevent someone from running you off the road if you reasonably believed that there was no other way to prevent it.

BUT, once you're off the road and unharmed, that incident is over and deadly force is no longer being employed against you. You don't have the right to retaliate, only to defend.

Once he's no longer trying to run you off the road or run you over with his car, you have lost your justification for using deadly force.

Now that you're both safely off the road, if he comes at you after he stops and gets out of his vehicle, THAT IS AN ENTIRELY SEPARATE encounter. The previous use (by the other guy) of deadly force can stay in your mind as evidence that he is willing to use deadly force, but that memory is NOT justification for using deadly force now. He must do something ELSE that poses an immediate and deadly/serious threat before you once again have the option of legally using deadly force.

So as he comes at you, you must assess this new situation to determine if the NEW SITUATION warrants deadly force. Like I say, you can keep the previous situation in mind, but not as justification, only as evidence of his willingness to use force.

There is a HUGE difference between retaliation (happens AFTER the deadly or serious threat is over) and defense (happens during or just before the deadly/serious threat to try to stop the threat).

There is absolutely NO legal justification for retaliation in the law. Not EVER. It doesn't matter if the guy just did his level best to kill your entire family and managed to get half of them--if he suddenly stop, drops his weapon and walks away, your legal justification for shooting has just vanished.

A jury may not convict you, but that's another story--we're talking about what the law says, and it doesn't give you the option to retaliate for what happened a minute ago. It only gives you the right to act to stop something that's happening this minute or to prevent something that a reasonable person believes is imminent.

[flintknapper]

My trouble with it (the way this is written), is that the CHL holders first thought was to reach for his weapon. Absent any visual clues (weapon in the hand of the other driver, reaching into his pocket, etc..), or lacking a clear verbal threat, then one's first reaction should not be to "prepare to draw".

I'm interested to hear input from other members if they were in a situation like Mr. Hale's. Let's say some other driver is being a jerk and you unknowingly do something to make him mad. He gets out and begins approaching your car unarmed, but his size alone is a little threatening. He doesn't look like he's coming to apologize. At what point would you feel for your gun, or draw (assuming if you don't stop him he will attack you)?

I personally don't see anything wrong with discretely feeling for your gun if you can do so without drawing attention and in a non-threatening manner. If you wait till the attacker is bludgening you to death to feel for your gun you'd probably be lucky to get a shot off. I know retreat should be your first plan of action, but what if you're stuck in traffic, or your car was disabled in an accident with the attacker?

Good points about the OC spray. I really need to look into getting myself and my wife some of that.

Great question, certainly an honest one...and one that most of us have pondered. There could be many variables involved, but for the sake of this scenario, lets just go with what we have. The core question is: When (in this scenario) would you draw your weapon or prepare to do so?

My answer:(When limited to the information above is...) NOT AT ALL.

So far, all we know is that: He's being a "jerk" (in our opinion), he's bigger than us, he's unarmed and he's approaching us. Where you get into trouble is when you "Assume if you don't stop him he will attack you".

Heck, lets just say you were right! We'll go ahead and add to the scenario that: Your wife, girlfriend, children or other loved one(s) are in the vehicle with you. You can not retreat because of traffic all around you. The "jerk" indeed...walks right up to your car window and without saying a word...slaps you across the face with an open hand.

Well..then......., we're "good to go" now right? NOPE! If you "pop" the guy under these circumstances...then you'd better have a pretty slick lawyer, 'cause he's going to need to convince a jury that the definition of "disparity of force" is the same as YOU see it.

Lets change the scenario a little: It's now night time, your vehicle is boxed in, three guys get out of a vehicle and approach from behind you. You can make out a baseball bat in the hands of one of them. The other two split up, one goes to the passenger side of your vehicle, the other hangs back. The one with the bat suddenly shows up at your window, taps on it with the bat, demands that you turn over your wallet or he will "smash your head in".......

I hope you can see the difference. In any case, it will boil down to: What would another reasonable and prudent person do...AND whatever case law or precedents apply.

The fact is, carrying a deadly weapon only allows for the use of that weapon in a very narrow set of circumstances. You can't (legally) pull that "hog leg" just because you're about to take a "butt whipping" (as in the first case). There would need to be the threat or reasonable probability of serious bodily injury or death (as in the second case).

You can't (legally) shoot someone...or even display your weapon just because: You're mad, You're feelings are hurt, He was in the wrong, He started it..or because he called you out on the concrete.

Until Texas changes it's laws to make it legal to meet force with force, and no longer requires "duty to retreat" then you're best off leaving your weapon holstered.. except under the gravest of extremes.

One thing I want to make perfectly clear: There is no greater proponent for the "right" to self defense than I. I'm not telling anyone when or when not to protect yourself, I'm just asking that everyone "think it through".

If ever the time comes when you absolutely need to pull your weapon in defense of your life then don't hesitate. Just make sure you're right.

The beauty of a site like this is that it allows us to discuss and contemplate what actions might be appropriate for a given threat. I have come to the conclusion that "day in and day out"...simple awareness, using my head, using verbal skills, common courtesy and respect for my fellow man...serves me best.

A gun is a great tool to have. No doubt, it can add a powerful final layer to ones personal protection plan. It should however, be the last thing employed if circumstance allows.

Thats my take on it. Sorry for the length.

Flint.

[nitrogen]

Amazing.

I never realised the interpretation that you spoke of, as each incident being "different" (the running off the road, then the afterwards). Amazing the things you learn. I'm thankful for a forum like this where I can talk about my experiences, and read everyone elses, and hopefully not make a costly life altering mistake.

Anyone ever tried to call the police on someone that's road raged them, or even for some road rage that you see on the highway that doesn't even involve you? Ever get the police to do something about it?

Part of me thinks that Road Ragers know that they can get away with this stuff with impunity, and that's why they do it.

[flintknapper]

Part of me thinks that Road Ragers know that they can get away with this stuff with impunity, and that's why they do it.

Agreed!