When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

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Excaliber
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Re: When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

#16

Post by Excaliber »

CHL/LEO wrote:In regards to drawing my weapon I'm kinda like Steve, it's happened so much that it's now just a non event. If I recall correctly, the first couple of times it happened I replayed the event over and over in my mind just critiquing and playing "what if" scenarios. After a while though you don't even think about it really, other than asking yourself did I draw soon enough, or what would I have done different. Prior to leaving the scene it's history and you're off to the next call. Even late at night when I'm driving home after a shift I don't even think about it. In fact, reading this post if the first time in years that I've even given it any thought.
This was generally my experience also in situations where I had at least a few seconds to figure out what was going on. I did much more personal after action review with cases where I had to draw unexpectedly to deal with something that either I hadn't seen as I approached (what could I have done to get a better understanding of what was going on before getting close?), or something a suspect did suddenly that may have presented an unexpected threat, like reaching into his pocket when told to show his hands. (Did I challenge from the best available cover? What were my options if he had produced a firearm?)

Like CHL/LEO and the vast majority of other LEO's, I was fortunate in that I was never in a situation where I had to apply deadly force, although I was involved in a number of incidents where use of deadly force would have been justified under the law. In those cases, I saw other options and believed I could use them to resolve the situation at hand. As it turned out (you never know until it's over), those were good calls. Not everyone in my agency was so lucky, and several of the folks I worked closely with had to fire to resolve the situations they encountered. Had I been in the same situations, I would have had to fire too - there were no other options that any of us could see in post incident critiques, although there were always other tactical improvements identified. I am grateful that in all of those cases except one, the would be cop killers lost badly, and the officer in the other incident survived and recovered.

There is a difference between drawing a weapon in law enforcement and civilian situations. LEO's generally can draw their weapons whenever they fear for their safety, and don't have to prove that a deadly threat was present unless they apply deadly force. My agency did not classify drawing a weapon proactively as a recordable use of force unless the weapon was pointed at one or more individuals. This relieved some of the mental work a CHL has to do before he makes a decision to present his weapon at all.
Excaliber

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper
I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of my posts should be construed as legal or professional advice.
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Kythas
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Re: When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

#17

Post by Kythas »

Armed-Texan wrote:can't say i have ever even drawn my weapon, but if i ever do and use it, i suspect i will need some serious counseling and spiritual guidance. while i am a christian and believe killing is a sin, i will protect myself and family with deadly force if needed. but like i said, i would probably spend a lot of time with my pastor afterwards.
The literal Commandment from the original Hebrew text is "Thou shalt not murder". The Bible in the original Hebrew text makes a distinction between murder and killing, but it has been mistranslated down the centuries. Anyway...

In my short time in law enforcement, I never had to fire my weapon, though I did draw it on numerous occassions.

However, in the Gulf War, I served in the infantry (mechanized) and did see combat. At the time it was happening, I was simply a machine putting my training to use and was doing nothing but firing at targets. It was after the shooting stopped that I had time to think about it and realize those "targets" were tanks that actually had people inside of them.

I've never felt any remorse about what I did in the war, and I doubt I'd feel any remorse about shooting someone who was threatening the life of me or someone in my family as a civilian. If I'm ever in a situation where somebody else's actions put me in a situation where either I'm going home or they are, you can rest assured that I'll be the one sleeping in my bed at the end of the night, and will be sleeping like a baby.
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Re: When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

#18

Post by Keith B »

I have stayed out of this until now, but thought I would add my experiences.

I was a Reserve LEO 25+ years ago. I drew my weapon or deployed the riot gun several times, but usually a mode where we were 'on the ready' not pointed at someone (but that happened too.) I was secondarily involved in two on-duty shootings.

The first was after a pursuit of an individual who was thought to just have been a extremely high rate speeder. When the other officer got behind the individual, he started shooting back at the officer's vehicle with a Ruger Mk I .22. I was riding that night with another officer, and when we joined the pursuit the individual wrecked his car. He got out and fired at our car as we went by on the highway. Our vehicle pulled up at an angle and I drew down on the guy. He started running in a straight line toward a Quick-Stop. I didn't have a safe angle on the guy as the quick stop was behind him, but the original officer had a clear shot line and stopped the individual with one round from his .357. We found out later that he had hacked his Mom and Dad to death with an ax 6 hours earlier in Kentucky. That made the whole ordeal easier to deal with for me and the officer I was riding with, but the shooting officer still had some minor things to contend with.

The second incident was an armed robbery in progress. One of our Detectives pulled up to a Stop-n-Rob about 2AM. When he pulled in front, he saw an individual holding the clerk at gunpoint with a sawed off shotgun. The Detective's Dad owned the quick stop, so he had a key to the back door. He called for backup, and I responded from about 4 blocks away. I pulled up to the side of the building, and worked around the front with the Mossberg. The Detective had gone in the back door of the building and came through the door to the side of the counter from the storage room. I had just came around the corner and looked into the front window just in time to hear him yell at the perp to drop his weapon. The guy swung around on the detective and was shot as he started to swing. One shot dropped the individual. This man had a very long arrest record and criminal background, so that also made it easier to accept for both of us.

In short, every situation is going to be different. Circumstances, past history of the individual, etc. are all going to factor into it post shooting. An example that I feel I would have trouble with is if a young kid with no criminal history pulled a gun on me and I had to defend myself. While it may be a good shoot, I think I would still have trouble accepting that I had taken the life of a young misguided person. But you do what you have to at the time and address those issues when they come up.
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Venus Pax
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Re: When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

#19

Post by Venus Pax »

Good thread.
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Re: When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

#20

Post by LedJedi »

rm9792 wrote:I have shot and killed in the middle east. I didnt have any issues afterward and since it was 15 years ago i guess i never will. Mindset to me is very important. Yes you killed a person but that person made the decision and faced the consequences. If I shoot someone trying to harm me or my daughter I will be more concerned with the upcoming hassles and paperwork than the scum i just stopped. To me an armed criminal is the enemy and has made his decision to engage in a dangerous line of work. I am in the small minority that doesnt believe all life is precious and must be preserved. I believe life is a gift that must be earned (except in children) and continue to be earned. When you choose to commit crimes and harm others for your own benefit then you are on borrowed time. I am sure you meant when a CHL has drawn but were also looking for mental state in general after a shooting.

well said, well said. +1
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Re: When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

#21

Post by tarkus »

Lonestar 48 wrote:I know this is a sensitive subject, but most of us have never been in these situations. For those of you that have drawn your firearm, what were your feelings just prior to, and for awhile, afterwards?
Anger. I was angry at the criminal for causing the situation and I was angry enough to shoot him if he continued.
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Re: When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

#22

Post by killerfly128 »

Pause Thread ...

tarkus wrote:Anger. I was angry at the criminal for causing the situation and I was angry enough to shoot him if he continued.
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. - Yoda

Image

....Resume Thread



( I couldnt help myself, I think i am way too tired :patriot: )

EDIT - I felt the same way when i had to draw. I wonder if it is comon to feel that way on your first time to draw on a human being.
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Re: When you've drawn, or when you've pulled the trigger...

#23

Post by boomerang »

killerfly128 wrote:Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. - Yoda
"I have often preached that the proper antidote to fear is anger, and I see no reason to change my opinion on this. However, there is another mental condition that serves as well or possibly better, and that is concentration. I have discussed this matter at great length with people who are in a position to know, and I am not without experience of my own, and I can state positively that when you find yourself facing deadly danger, your ability to concentrate every mental faculty upon doing what needs to be done to save yourself leaves no room for fear. If it happens that return fire is the best solution to your danger, you are fortunate, because if you have organized yourself properly your total preoccupation with your front sight and trigger control will have become automatic; and therefore you cannot fear your enemy's bullet since you are simply too busy concentrating on hitting him. I think this truth is incontrovertible, but we certainly see that large numbers of people who get involved in street fights, on either side of the law, have never heard of it." - Jeff Cooper
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