Businesses that prohibit CHL

[Kalrog]

I'm no expert but I believe it's because post offices are federal property, and a state issued license can't give you permission to carry on federal ground.

It is my opinion that Federal Law allows a person to carry on PO property for "lawful purposes". Carrying under a CHL is a "lawful purpose"

I agree - that would be my opinion as well, but I don't believe that there is any case law that would support this opinion. I don't care to be the test case either.

[anygunanywhere]

I don't care to be the test case either.

Kalrog,

None of us would want to be the test case.

This vague area is another example of issues that require clarification.

IMHO, the restriction IS a violation of my 2nd amendment rights.

Why must we be prevented from defending ourselves in post offices?

I have heard and read many times "I will not go where I can not carry".

Well, I don't belive that for a second. We do have to go where we are "legally(?)" restricted from carrying.

I am in agreement that if a person were to carry concealed on government property and is legally allowed to carry, it is not against federal law.

A person must be able to defend himself.

'Nuff said.

[stevie_d_64]

Well, Federal Property is supposed to be safe for anyone conducting business there...[sarcasm mode off]

US Capitol building - 3 dead (Tom Delay's office)

Cynthia McKinney - security bypass plot "foiled"...

etc etc...You just never know...

Ok, so I didn't really turn the sarcasm off all the way...

[Commander]

I've seen a lot of discussion about whether or not you can carry in a Post Office. Here is my "dumb" question - How is Joe Blow CHL holder to know if a Post Office is illegal to carry in? Does the Post Office post some type of sign other than the 30.06? I've looked closely at a couple of Post Offices and have seen no signs of any type regarding firearms.

I just went through my renewal class and we discussed "places prohibited" - the instructor never mentioned Post Offices or Federal Property. Its been four years, but I don't remember it being discussing in my initial CHL class either.

[KBCraig]

I've seen a lot of discussion about whether or not you can carry in a Post Office. Here is my "dumb" question - How is Joe Blow CHL holder to know if a Post Office is illegal to carry in? Does the Post Office post some type of sign other than the 30.06? I've looked closely at a couple of Post Offices and have seen no signs of any type regarding firearms.

The relevant law, 18 USC 930, says:

"Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be."

I just went through my renewal class and we discussed "places prohibited" - the instructor never mentioned Post Offices or Federal Property. Its been four years, but I don't remember it being discussing in my initial CHL class either.

That's because Texas doesn't restrict you from carrying there. Whether or not the federal government does is subject to debate, but that's between you and the feds, not the state of Texas.

Just for the record, I find it very persuasive that licensed concealed carry would be a "lawful purpose", and legal within a post office. But remember that this position, just like the evidence that there is no federal law requiring you to actually file and pay your taxes, is moot if they arrest you. You'll be prosecuted and probably convicted. The judge is the sole arbiter of what the law is, and will not allow the defense attorney to question the validity, nor even the existence, of the law in front of the jury.

That's why it would suck to be the test case. We think it's obvious that we could just point out the glaring omission in the law books, but remember: it's not what the law says, it's what the judge says it says.

Kevin

[Commander]

For clarification, the Federal Law is similar to Texas Law, notice must be posted at the entrance of a Post Office? No signage would mean you could carry?

Even though Texas Law doesn't prohibit you from carrying on Federal Property, it would seem to be the prudent thing for CHL instructors to cover Federal law. How else is a CHL holder going to know?

[txinvestigator]

For clarification, the Federal Law is similar to Texas Law, notice must be posted at the entrance of a Post Office? No signage would mean you could carry?

Even though Texas Law doesn't prohibit you from carrying on Federal Property, it would seem to be the prudent thing for CHL instructors to cover Federal law. How else is a CHL holder going to know?

Federal Law is NOT a required part of the CHL training, it is not covered in the curriculum, it is NOT tested, and instructors are not advised or instructed as to what Federal Laws cover.

As you can see from this thread, it is better for instructors NOT to cover Federal Law, as there are varying opinions as to what the laws are. Students, in general, tend to take what the instructors say as the gospel. Many student would be told wrong.

A prudent CHL holder will do his own research.

[Commander]

This takes me back to my original question: How is the average CHL holder to know about the Post Office restrictions? If its not covered in CHL class how are they to know? I'd bet that 80% or better of CHL "graduates" leave that class and think they have received all the information on CHL restrictions there are and not do any research into Federal Law. Perhaps CHL instructors could just mention that some study of Federal Law would be prudent.

I would just hate to see some CHL holder arrested at a Post Office when they had no idea they were in violation. That's my bottom line here.

[wrt45]

This takes me back to my original question: How is the average CHL holder to know about the Post Office restrictions? If its not covered in CHL class how are they to know? I'd bet that 80% or better of CHL "graduates" leave that class and think they have received all the information on CHL restrictions there are and not do any research into Federal Law. Perhaps CHL instructors could just mention that some study of Federal Law would be prudent.

I would just hate to see some CHL holder arrested at a Post Office when they had no idea they were in violation. That's my bottom line here.

In my classes we give out the TxCHA training manual for each student. On page 54 (I think...I'm not in my office where I can look it up) they discuss this post office issue. We always point out to students that federal law will cover federal land and property, and that they need to be aware of possible differences.

Like TX said, we don't try to teach Fed law, but we do raise the issue.

[KBCraig]

I found a new business that bans today: Red River Federal Credit Union, in Texarkana.

I previously thought the only 30.06 sign in town was on Cristus St. Michael Hospital.

The RRFCU sign is valid. White vinyl letters on dark tinted glass. Letters are definitely over 1", probably 2". Proper wording in English and Spanish, plus a Ghostbuster symbol.

The only possible quibble is that the sign is on the lower half of an automatic sliding door, and when it slides open the sign is partially hidden behind a display.

The sign is not on the exterior doors; there are two entrances to a foyer, and the 30.06 sign is on the door that leads from the foyer to the lobby.

I was going there to ask them about an RV loan, but decided I don't need the money from them. I did have to enter anyway, since I was checking payoff and loan value on a trailer that belongs to one of their customers. (I carry under LEOSA, not CHL, so it wasn't a violation.)

Oh, and the guy is seriously upside down on his loan. He only wants payoff, but if I paid him retail, he'd still owe a couple of thousand.

Kevin

[Flatland2D]

USAA Federal Reserve Bank in San Antonio.

But, since this is a federal reserve bank do federal rules apply? And actually, the bank isn't posted properly under Texas law. There's a "No firearms permitted on USAA property" with a ghostbusters sign at each enterance, and the old parking lot that has since been converted into a garden area.

Also, the SAXET Gun Show at the airport convention center is always posted. Seems kind of dumb to me to not allow concealed carry at a GUN show.

[Commander]

Noticed today at Freeman Mazda in Irving "State Law prohibits firearms on these premises" (in spanish as well)

[KBCraig]

USAA Federal Reserve Bank in San Antonio.

But, since this is a federal reserve bank do federal rules apply?

It's not a Federal Reserve Bank. It's USAA Federal Savings Bank, which is a significantly different thing.

There are no federal rules against firearms in banks. When a bank has "Federal" or "National" in its name, that means it's insured by FDIC. Insurance backing is the only thing "federal" or "national" about such banks; they're still private property.

Kevin

[Lindy]

I am a USAA member, and have been in the building many times. Since the signs do not conform to the requirements of 30.06, I have and will continue to ignore them.

[Flatland2D]

USAA Federal Reserve Bank in San Antonio.

But, since this is a federal reserve bank do federal rules apply?

It's not a Federal Reserve Bank. It's USAA Federal Savings Bank, which is a significantly different thing.

There are no federal rules against firearms in banks. When a bank has "Federal" or "National" in its name, that means it's insured by FDIC. Insurance backing is the only thing "federal" or "national" about such banks; they're still private property.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin (and Lindy) for the good info. I had my terms mixed up. Having to disarm myself in the car with a Smart Carry has been a pain. I have yet to find a fluid method of pulling out my pistol and securing it. My car is lower to the ground than the average car and I'm paranoid someone will see in. I'm glad that's one less place I'll have to do that.