Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#61

Post by Skiprr »

carlson1 wrote:This is a hard topic because of the hard feelings on both sides. :thumbs2:
This is worth pointing out, IMHO, because this Topic was not started by the OP as the umpteenth one about open carry itself, or rights versus privileges, or DPS delays in issuing CHLs. It was started to discuss the specific issue of OpenCarry.org's new, aggressive focus on Texas and our 81st state legislature, now only weeks away; the gavel falls at noon on January 13.

To me, that's a very specific distinction. If someone could wave a magic wand and, voila!, Texas had permissible open carry with no other impact whatsoever to the hard-thought and hard-fought laws that are in place today, and to those that are being prepared--that have been in the works for months and even years (remember, we had a parking lot bill in 2007 that passed committees but could never get on calendar)--of course I'd be for it. No problem.

But the real world doesn't work that way. Nobody has a magic wand; we don't have an autocracy or monocracy where one opinion can be swayed and everyone else in the land hops-to and falls into ranks.

The reality is that everything is about politics. Everyone and every special interest group has an opinion that is allowed to be heard; there are fulltime lobbyists who fight for specific agendas; there are a broad array of interests aligned against what next steps need to happen in Texas to improve our state laws with respect to firearms.

It's about politics and it's complex. As Charles has pointed out, even the change of one or two words has kept bill sponsors, attorneys, and lobbyists up late into the night negotiating over what may seem to be minutiae. On the pro-gun side, those who have been involved in crafting and pushing legislation have been--must be--extremely careful of the ripple effects of any single change. And they must have near-term and long-term strategies and be forever cognizant of the political reality so that they can, in fact, negotiate: we have no issue that can be won with a sledgehammer; it takes superior strategy and finesse, not a bull in the china shop.

Look how much was achieved in the 2007 legislative session.

There are two things troubling me most about OpenCarry.org's approach. The first I can sum up as: "United we conquer; divided we fall."

We are in a minority to begin with. The pressures that kept the 2007 parking lot bill out of calendar came, in large part, from strong lobbying by the business sector and chambers of commerce. Powerful opposition with a lot of money behind them. Pardon the metaphor, but we can't overcome opposition like that with a spray-and-pray approach.

We need to pick our battles logically, carefully, and marshal our RKBA forces in a focused effort to make gains in the legislature.

To my knowledge, OpenCarry.org did not work with the TSRA (and I may write Alice Tripp to confirm), the NRA, or any of our state's longtime legislative authors and supporters before arbitrarily deciding they wanted to jump into the fray and push their single agenda. To heck with whether or not it's the best thing for Texas and firearm laws in Texas.

Nitrogen won the thread's Best Post award so far: "I wish these people were more concerned with where they can carry than with how."

Pushing an open-carry agenda that is single-minded, that is poorly thought out, that disregards the political landscape in Texas, and that does so without cooperation and solidarity from the TSRA, NRA, and those with their fingers on the gun-pulse of Texas is, in my opinion, precisely the wrong thing to do. It is divisive to the state's gun owners and RKBA advocates, it will add confusion to bills that need to be on the table, and it will give a new rallying point for anti-gun lobbyists.

Which leads me to reason number two, and I already said it: poorly thought out.

If OpenCarry.org really wanted to win this emotionally-charged political battle in Texas, don't you think they might actually do some research? Learn the history of gun legislation in the state? Talk to the TSRA and build a coalition? Actually pay a Texas lawyer to draft their first offering of a bill?

Instead, the only place we're seeing money spent is on billboard and radio advertising. Call me naive, but that tells me OpenCarry.org's agenda is OpenCarry.org.

I hope you all looked at my earlier post, visited their site, and read what they are touting as their "bill" that they suggest we all should send to our state representatives. Not only does it look like it was dashed off in an hour by someone not a JD or member of the bar, they chose to edit not the currently published state penal code, but an interim version issued after the close of the 2007 session that still contains reference to changes made during that 80th legislature.

As an example of how little thought seemed to go into that document, consider that under it, if you do not have a CHL, the only way you can carry in your car is if the gun remains plainly visible. So what do you do if you need to go to a hospital or church or school or anywhere else where carrying would be prohibited? Leave your Glock sitting on your dashboard?

That's the kind of planning and professionalism that will hurt us, not help us.

My cautionary statement is this: Don't spam your state representatives with any and everything that comes along. Pick your battles wisely, focus on those battles, and then make your voice heard.

I personally have absolutely zero opposition to open carry, per se. But like I said, there ain't no magic wand. We all need to analyze, understand, and decide where to put our support. Just because the term "open carry" sounds good to you, doesn't mean that it's the best agenda to push in our 81st legislative session.
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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#62

Post by Skiprr »

KBCraig wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:OpenCarry.org, a Virginia-based organization....
I didn't realize that Virginia-based organizations were unwelcome in Texas. Don't you happen to sit on the Board of Directors of a Virginia-based organization? ;-)

OpenCarry.org is no more an "organization" than TexasCHLforum.com is.
I believe you may be thinking of the nascent Texas CHL Forum, Inc. TexasCHLForum.com does not collect money, accept donations, sell memberships, or make advertising buys.
OpenCarry.org wrote: With billboards in both San Antonio and in Houston, and with the taxi's rolling our message out to Austin every day, we now turn our attention to the airwaves!

We have an opportunity to place radio ads in the Dallas-Ft Worth metroplex! With this buy, we will have taken our message to all of the major markets in Texas....

If you have not donated yet, or have a little left to give, now would be the time.

Anyone donating $25 or more dollars who is not already a Founder's Club or Centurion member will have their member status updated to "Lone Star Thunder Veteran."
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I’ve contacted my State Rep, Gary Elkins, about co-sponsoring HB560. Have you contacted your Rep?
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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#63

Post by jlangton »

Skiprr wrote:
carlson1 wrote:
To my knowledge, OpenCarry.org did not work with the TSRA (and I may write Alice Tripp to confirm), the NRA, or any of our state's longtime legislative authors and supporters before arbitrarily deciding they wanted to jump into the fray and push their single agenda. To heck with whether or not it's the best thing for Texas and firearm laws in Texas.
Why don't you just pick up the phone and call her?
I've spoken with Alice a few times on the phone (She's quite pleasant and friendly and likes to talk,just like myself),and was told almost without hesitation that TSRA absolutely would not have anything to do with open carry bills,and that if anybody wanted to work on that that they were on their own. Alice and I don't agree on a few things, but that's life-nobody agrees on everything. I don't fault or condemn her or the TSRA because of those disagreements-that would be immature and childish.
JL
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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#64

Post by mr.72 »

The current law is so convoluted and screwed up, it is very difficult to identify any sensible or useful new law that will do more than incremental good.

So incremental good is about all we can expect. It's kind of like trying to rebuild a transmission with only a pocket knife. The job is not going to get done because it is far and away too complex for the tools at hand, and very little progress can actually be made at all with such a tool. So either you just let it die, you change the tools, or you live with very little progress. It seems clear that we cannot change the tools and we are unwilling to let the current system die, so we are going to live with very little progress. Note very little progress is more than no progress.

So parking lot carry, school carry, are probably the most we can hope for.

Sure, nobody would tolerate it if our first amendment rights were treated exactly this way, but we, in Texas, have a long and rich legacy of tolerating the abuse of our second amendment rights this way, along with almost every other state in the country. However, our first amendment rights are also abused regularly by the state government. The only Amendment that does not get routinely trampled is the third.
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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#65

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

KBCraig wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:OpenCarry.org, a Virginia-based organization....
I didn't realize that Virginia-based organizations were unwelcome in Texas. Don't you happen to sit on the Board of Directors of a Virginia-based organization? ;-)
My point is that "organizations" based in other states that are not knowledgeable in the procedural rules and customs in Texas are at a disadvantage when trying to draft legislation and in deciding how to get it introduced. My comment was prompted by the quote in the article that the open-carry supporters would try to attach their bill to another bill, if they couldn't get a sponsor. Those are fighting words to anyone experienced in shepherding a bill through the legislative process! All kidding aside, the last thing any bill promoter wants is to have a well-crafted bill with a narrow scope amended to include subject matter unrelated to your goals. And "my" Virginia-based organization has expertise in every state, as well as on the federal level. :lol:
KBCraig wrote:OpenCarry.org is no more an "organization" than TexasCHLforum.com is. I wouldn't even call it "Virginia-based", although that's where the founders live. It's an online, grassroots, community of gun rights activists, with volunteer researchers and advocates for almost every state. There are clashing opinions and clashing personalities, and no 10 year old daughter rule. It's not the same as this forum, but every community has its own norm.
I agree. I wasn't condemning OpenCarry.org, I just noted that I went there to invite their members to TexasCHLforum to discuss the open-carry issue. I chose not to post anything since, as you noted, the atmosphere there was markedly different than here and inviting that type of "discussion" here in TexasCHLforum would not have been prudent.
KBCraig wrote:You mentioned that people who disagree are treated viciously over there. There have been plenty of trolls there who deserve to be treated with scorn. Why would anyone join a position advocacy forum just to tell them how wrong and crazy they are? Would you welcome someone who came here and on the first post started telling us we're wrong and crazy for carrying guns? How "inappropriate" it is? How dangerous it is for us to be around children while we're carrying? And wouldn't it be a hundred times more irritating if this person claimed to be a gun owner who supports the Second, just "not like that"?

There's a new thread like that almost weekly on OCDO, where a concealed carry advocate joins up and denigrates open carry, because "they'll snatch your gun!" or "they'll take you out first!" or "you're ruining it for the rest of us!"; such people get the "welcome" they deserve.
I don't like trolls on any board and they may have theirs. But I don't consider everyone with an opposing view a troll. If open-carry supporters can't calmly and respectfully discuss such issues as you mentioned ("snatch" risk, first target, etc.), then they don't want honest and open discourse, they just want cheerleaders and "yes men." We do nothing to discourage open discussion of diverse views here on TexasCHLforum; we just require that people be respectful. But again, as you mentioned, it's their board and it can be run as they see fit. If I thought there was something wrong with OpenCarry.org I certainly wouldn't have a link to their website in our links section.

Chas.

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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#66

Post by oldboyshooter »

I am for open carry only for one reason. To have an absolute defense if someone were to see my concealed weapon, for any reason. The word intentional would not apply, period. Who really knows what the real intentions of a person are. I do not wish to leave it up to a jury.

For now, I carry in my pocket.
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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#67

Post by carlson1 »

jlangton wrote:
Skiprr wrote:
carlson1 wrote:
To my knowledge, OpenCarry.org did not work with the TSRA (and I may write Alice Tripp to confirm), the NRA, or any of our state's longtime legislative authors and supporters before arbitrarily deciding they wanted to jump into the fray and push their single agenda. To heck with whether or not it's the best thing for Texas and firearm laws in Texas.
Why don't you just pick up the phone and call her?
I've spoken with Alice a few times on the phone (She's quite pleasant and friendly and likes to talk,just like myself),and was told almost without hesitation that TSRA absolutely would not have anything to do with open carry bills,and that if anybody wanted to work on that that they were on their own. Alice and I don't agree on a few things, but that's life-nobody agrees on everything. I don't fault or condemn her or the TSRA because of those disagreements-that would be immature and childish.
JL

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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#68

Post by sar »

My seecamp'll look silly in a duty holster.

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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#69

Post by jlangton »

carlson1 wrote: jlangton
YOU MISQUOTED ME :fire I never made that quote!
:leaving
It's been one of those days.......
:mrgreen:
JL
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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#70

Post by KBCraig »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
KBCraig wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:OpenCarry.org, a Virginia-based organization....
I didn't realize that Virginia-based organizations were unwelcome in Texas. Don't you happen to sit on the Board of Directors of a Virginia-based organization? ;-)
My point is that "organizations" based in other states that are not knowledgeable in the procedural rules and customs in Texas are at a disadvantage when trying to draft legislation and in deciding how to get it introduced. ... And "my" Virginia-based organization has expertise in every state, as well as on the federal level. :lol:
Ah, this is timely! :mrgreen:

From my inbox today, from NRA-ILA:

Pro-Gun Bill Introduced in the Lone Star State!

Please Contact Your State Legislators Today!

The pre-filing of bills for the 2009 legislative session has begun.

State Representative Dennis Bonnen (R-Angleton) has introducedHouse Bill 267, which would allow Texans to purchase rifles and shotgun in non-contiguous states. Currently, federal law allows the interstate sales of such firearms, but a conflicting Texas law only allows residents to buy long guns in the neighboring states of Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and New Mexico. This state law has prevented the FBI and BATFE from approving sales of rifles and shotguns in 45 other states to Texas residents.


That is hardly expert analysis, and completely misstates both the law and the problem.

As discussed elsewhere here recently, Texas law does not prohibit residents from purchasing long guns in non-contiguous states. It only says that residents may purchase long guns in contiguous states, but places no restrictions at all.

There is no conflict with federal law as claimed by NRA-ILA.

Some have reported that FBI or ATF have misread the statute, but that's what it is: a misreading. And it does need to eliminated, so that there's nothing to misread. There's no need for the state to bring statutes into line with federal law, so Texans should be able to buy guns anywhere as far as the State of Texas is concerned.

So, I welcome this bill, but it doesn't do what NRA-ILA claims.

Sorry for the hijack, I just found the timing too funny. Maybe they should stick to Virginia law. ;-) :mrgreen:

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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#71

Post by KBCraig »

Cowtown Cop has a good article today about open carry from his perspective.

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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#72

Post by LSU_nonleg »

Exactly. Licensing Open-Carry would be a disaster. Every time somebody openly carried a handgun,they would be stopped,disarmed,and "checked' for license.
No thanks-I'll take mine without a licensing requirement or not at all.
JL
A little late for this particular comment, but no one else seems to have addressed it. IANAL, but probable cause would still be required unless the officers were conducting a Terry stop. We've been through all of this open carry rigamarole, and still go through it to this day in Georgia. Yes, certain departments and police chiefs will encourage the "your gun is all the probable cause I need" type actions until they get their hands smacked. However, some ramp up time to train LEOs just like the public is to be expected.
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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#73

Post by carlson1 »

jlangton wrote:
carlson1 wrote: jlangton
YOU MISQUOTED ME :fire I never made that quote!
:leaving
It's been one of those days.......
:mrgreen:
JL
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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#74

Post by Morgan »

I don't think there are too many people HERE on this forum who would oppose open carry if legislated CORRECTLY. I don't know what we're arguing about. I think that there are people who know a lot more about the way the laws of this state are written than me who are saying that the way opencarry.org's legislation is written is BAD for TX. THey're not saying, "Open carry legislation is bad" they're saying "THIS legislation is bad." We certainly don't want to support legislation that can be used to harm our RKBA rights.

I'm all for good, reasonable open carry laws. It just doesn't sound like this is it. I don't know how often I'd actually open carry... probably only at night walking my dogs, I'd thrown on a paddle holster for convenience. But I'm all for it from a 2A standpoint. I'm a libertarian...I'm all for the expansion of my rights, even if I choose to not flex them all the time.

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Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

#75

Post by O6nop »

Morgan wrote:I don't think there are too many people HERE on this forum who would oppose open carry if legislated CORRECTLY. I don't know what we're arguing about. I think that there are people who know a lot more about the way the laws of this state are written than me who are saying that the way opencarry.org's legislation is written is BAD for TX. THey're not saying, "Open carry legislation is bad" they're saying "THIS legislation is bad." We certainly don't want to support legislation that can be used to harm our RKBA rights.

I'm all for good, reasonable open carry laws. It just doesn't sound like this is it. I don't know how often I'd actually open carry... probably only at night walking my dogs, I'd thrown on a paddle holster for convenience. But I'm all for it from a 2A standpoint. I'm a libertarian...I'm all for the expansion of my rights, even if I choose to not flex them all the time.


Still trying to decide. I posted in another forum, but my questions are:

1) Is open carry intended to be an unlicensed ?
2) If so, can anyone carry? (mental patients, felons, children)
3) If not, how do we weed out those that shouldn't?
4) If a licensing method is used, how is it enforced?
5) Can an officer stop anyone carrying open to verify they are licensed?
6) If not, will a crime have to be commited (gun related or not) in order for a policeman to check for your license?
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