Illegal 30.06 signs

[Morgan]

Ok...first, I was actually joking a LITTLE bit. It's just humerous irony, IMO...

But....

If he advertises the signs as "fully compliant" then that is certainly unethical. But just saying "I have signs for sale. They say "X" on them" is perhaps a little shady...but it's still funny.

But yeah, I do actually think that a private business that 30.06's its location is denying me the right to protect myself. Are these businesses posting armed guards? I don't THINK so. Are they escorting me to and from my car? I don't THINK so. If I'm wrong, then that amazing one-in-a-million business is doing it right.

[kitty]

Kitty, not wanting to drift this thread, but there have been several discussions recently that essentially insist that what I have on my pereson is not the concern of any business. They have no right under any sort of private property ideology to tell me what I can or cannot strap to my person and carry concealed.

Anygunanywhere

hmmmm......perhaps but the State of Texas gives them the right to deny you entrance into their facility. Yes, it's a stupid rule, and the only way to change it is through legislation. I still think the business owner is wrong. I would think he was wrong regardless of what kind of business it is. He's intentionally ripping his clients off. I wouldn't do business with anybody who thinks it's ok to skimp on the quality of their work.

[Kawabuggy]

Here's another thought on the matter. Why do most businesses post the signs? Is it because the proprietor of the business WANTS to disarm his customers, or is it because the insurance company for these businesses are worried about being sued? Think about it. The business owner may get a discount, or maybe he is told that his insurance will not cover an "armed" event unless he has the 30.06 sign posted.

It would occur to me that scum bag goes in to rob liquor store, patron shoots scum bag dead. Family of scum bag hears $$$ signs in their future and sues the business. The business relies on insurance to cover the mess. Now the insurance company decides that ALL businesses that it insures MUST have a 30-06 sign to prevent these types of lawsuits... I don't know if this is how it works, but I am just putting this up for thought. If I'm way off base-let me know.

How else would/could CHL holders understand why businesses post these signs?

Now back on the topic, if the proprietor has to post the signs as part of insurance coverage, and it is found out later after an armed event that the signs are not legal because they are the wrong size/color/verbiage or whatever, does the insurance company have an "out" or does the business owner have coverage because he "posted the sign as requested by insurance company"? If the business owner is left holding the bag as a result of an illegal sign---then I think the guy printing the signs intentionally incorrectly is putting the business owner in a very bad spot and that is not right.

As much as I understand insurance being a necessary evil, it still is not right to put it back on them either by using a bad sign, as we all know in the end we will pay for it any way in the form of higher premiums.

Printing incorrect signs is just bad mo-jo all the way around. What if something happens at a business where one of these incorrect signs is posted, and they figure out what the sign printer did? What if the printer then becomes legally liable because of his actions?

Like my mother always said "anything worth doing, is worth doing right THE FIRST TIME".

[RugerP345]

I don't think what he is doing is morally incorrect. If the customer does not provide the proper specification for the sign, then it is up to the Mfg. of the signs to come up with the correct specification. From a business standpoint, a sign that is smaller, takes less material, and thus is cheaper in the end. It would be cost prohibitive for the business owner to make a bigger sign that would use more material IF no spec. was provided. Maybe that’s his justification for the "non-compliant" signs.

I'm sure he is just in the sign making business, and not the 30.06 sign making business.

When I send down a set of prints to the machine shop, I get exactly what I designed. If something is incorrect with the part, it was a mistake on my part, and not the machinists.

[kitty]

I don't think what he is doing is morally incorrect. If the customer does not provide the proper specification for the sign, then it is up to the Mfg. of the signs to come up with the correct specification. From a business standpoint, a sign that is smaller, takes less material, and thus is cheaper in the end. It would be cost prohibitive for the business owner to make a bigger sign that would use more material IF no spec. was provided. Maybe that’s his justification for the "non-compliant" signs.

I'm sure he is just in the sign making business, and not the 30.06 sign making business.

When I send down a set of prints to the machine shop, I get exactly what I designed. If something is incorrect with the part, it was a mistake on my part, and not the machinists.

You have a point, but in this case, the printer knows exactly how the signs are to be done to be compliant, and he intentionally does them wrong to skirt the law at his client's expense. It's not like he's ignorant about how it's supposed to be done. I find this man to be untrustworthy.

[ewhite]

You have a point, but in this case, the printer knows exactly how the signs are to be done to be compliant, and he intentionally does them wrong to skirt the law at his client's expense. It's not like he's ignorant about how it's supposed to be done. I find this man to be untrustworthy.

Wow this turned the totally wrong direction....So Kitty if you see a non-compiant sign, do you obey it? If you do then great, but if you do not then you are doing exactly what he is. You know in your heart what is supposed to be on the sign...

Like I said, the customer is getting what they are ordering. If they order the proper sign, then that is what they get. If they do not state what size they want or say they want an illegal size he does not change their mind for them. Being in the business that also deals with machine shops, you literally get what you ask for, he is no different, he gives them what they ask for...FYI he is not changing the verbage of the sign. FYI if the cutomer only asks for the sign in english then that is what they get...I find it amuzing.

[kitty]

You have a point, but in this case, the printer knows exactly how the signs are to be done to be compliant, and he intentionally does them wrong to skirt the law at his client's expense. It's not like he's ignorant about how it's supposed to be done. I find this man to be untrustworthy.

Wow this turned the totally wrong direction....So Kitty if you see a non-compiant sign, do you obey it? If you do then great, but if you do not then you are doing exactly what he is. You know in your heart what is supposed to be on the sign...

Like I said, the customer is getting what they are ordering. If they order the proper sign, then that is what they get. If they do not state what size they want or say they want an illegal size he does not change their mind for them. Being in the business that also deals with machine shops, you literally get what you ask for, he is no different, he gives them what they ask for...FYI he is not changing the verbage of the sign. FYI if the cutomer only asks for the sign in english then that is what they get...I find it amuzing.

We're not talking about walking past non-compliant signs. The OP is about a guy he knows who intentionally makes non-compliant 30.06 signs for people who come in asking for them. He knows how they are supposed to be done, but because he knows how they're supposed to be but the client doesn't he just does them wrong because they won't know the difference. If I went to a restaurant and ordered something but didn't know how it was supposed to be prepared, but the chef knew exactly how it was to be done, but decided to short me on the preparation to save money or just because he's lazy, because I wouldn't know the difference, then he's stealing from me. I mean I don't know what my doctor is supposed to do regarding medical procedures, but he does; should he give me less quality care since I don't know if what he's doing is really correct or not. I would hope not. It's interesting to me what is condoned here.

Correction: He did ask if we, as CHLs, walk past non-compliant signs, then he mentioned his friend who prints them for people, but makes them non-compliant on purpose so he doesn't get busted. To answer the question, yes I do walk past non-compliant signs. I have only seen two compliant signs, the others I've seen are not.

[Morgan]

There's 2 ways it could go down that I see as slightly different. If a sign maker gets a call from a customer who says, "I want to order the kind of sign I can display outside my store so people will legally be obligated to leave their guns outside" then yeah, he's stealing.

if he makes non compliant signs and advertises that he has signs for sale that say "blah blah blah" and people buy them, that's another. I mean, there are people making ghostbuster vinal stickers and selling them.

[kitty]

There's 2 ways it could go down that I see as slightly different. If a sign maker gets a call from a customer who says, "I want to order the kind of sign I can display outside my store so people will legally be obligated to leave their guns outside" then yeah, he's stealing.

if he makes non compliant signs and advertises that he has signs for sale that say "blah blah blah" and people buy them, that's another. I mean, there are people making ghostbuster vinal stickers and selling them.

But that's not what you said. Ghost buster signs and 30.06 signs are two completely different things. Your OP implied that he intentionally makes 30.06 signs the wrong size because the law is very strict on size and wording, etc.

[Morgan]

there is plenty of rrom for interpretation in what the OP posted where it could be taken either way. "prints up for people"... well, someone "prints signs up for people" that say "garage sale" and they get put on a shelf until someone buys it. I guess I see too much crap on ebay where you have to read the fine print and I'm desensitized to it and I live by "caveat emptor" now.

[ewhite]

We're not talking about walking past non-compliant signs. The OP is about a guy he knows who intentionally makes non-compliant 30.06 signs for people who come in asking for them. He knows how they are supposed to be done, but because he knows how they're supposed to be but the client doesn't he just does them wrong because they won't know the difference. If I went to a restaurant and ordered something but didn't know how it was supposed to be prepared, but the chef knew exactly how it was to be done, but decided to short me on the preparation to save money or just because he's lazy, because I wouldn't know the difference, then he's stealing from me. I mean I don't know what my doctor is supposed to do regarding medical procedures, but he does; should he give me less quality care since I don't know if what he's doing is really correct or not. I would hope not. It's interesting to me what is condoned here.

Correction: He did ask if we, as CHLs, walk past non-compliant signs, then he mentioned his friend who prints them for people, but makes them non-compliant on purpose so he doesn't get busted. To answer the question, yes I do walk past non-compliant signs. I have only seen two compliant signs, the others I've seen are not.

I think a better way to coorelate it would be for you to order an Denver omlette and tell the chef you only want ham and cheese. Well the chef knows it has green peppers and mushrooms and it tastes much better with them, but if you want it with only ham and cheese, then that is the way you get it.

I just talked to him and he said he is not changing the wording, he is not giving them anything they do not ask for. If they ask for 30.06 sign he says how big do you wnat it? they say 8X10 then he makes it. They got exactly what they asked for.

Oh, if you walk past non comliant signs, then you are doing the same thing...you know that that establishment does not want you in there with your gun. Now do not get me wrong, when I get mine, I will dismiss them also, I will also be thanking my friend for not making it harder to go places than it should be. They call them idiot signs, because only an idiot would want one.

People want the police around anytime they can, but you mention people that are trained and have to follow the same rules, that can potentially stop your store from being robbed and they do not want that because your not police???...Idiots

[kitty]

We're not talking about walking past non-compliant signs. The OP is about a guy he knows who intentionally makes non-compliant 30.06 signs for people who come in asking for them. He knows how they are supposed to be done, but because he knows how they're supposed to be but the client doesn't he just does them wrong because they won't know the difference. If I went to a restaurant and ordered something but didn't know how it was supposed to be prepared, but the chef knew exactly how it was to be done, but decided to short me on the preparation to save money or just because he's lazy, because I wouldn't know the difference, then he's stealing from me. I mean I don't know what my doctor is supposed to do regarding medical procedures, but he does; should he give me less quality care since I don't know if what he's doing is really correct or not. I would hope not. It's interesting to me what is condoned here.

Correction: He did ask if we, as CHLs, walk past non-compliant signs, then he mentioned his friend who prints them for people, but makes them non-compliant on purpose so he doesn't get busted. To answer the question, yes I do walk past non-compliant signs. I have only seen two compliant signs, the others I've seen are not.

I think a better way to coorelate it would be for you to order an Denver omlette and tell the chef you only want ham and cheese. Well the chef knows it has green peppers and mushrooms and it tastes much better with them, but if you want it with only ham and cheese, then that is the way you get it.

I just talked to him and he said he is not changing the wording, he is not giving them anything they do not ask for. If they ask for 30.06 sign he says how big do you wnat it? they say 8X10 then he makes it. They got exactly what they asked for.

Oh, if you walk past non comliant signs, then you are doing the same thing...you know that that establishment does not want you in there with your gun. Now do not get me wrong, when I get mine, I will dismiss them also, I will also be thanking my friend for not making it harder to go places than it should be. They call them idiot signs, because only an idiot would want one.

People want the police around anytime they can, but you mention people that are trained and have to follow the same rules, that can potentially stop your store from being robbed and they do not want that because your not police???...Idiots

I only walk past them if they are blatantly non-compliant. I don't bring a ruler with me to make sure the letters are the right size, and the surface it's printed on is the exact size it's supposed to be.

As far as your friend, I wouldn't do business with him.

[SlowDave]

Well, I doubt people call this guy up and say, "I would like a sign that says, [insert 30.06 exact wording here]. I'd like it in blue and helvetica font." I think instead people either hear that this guy makes 30.06 signs, or they call up and ask for a 30.06 sign. Since he knows what is required for a 30.06 sign, delivering something that is non-compliant is at the least, dishonest. If he asks what size they want and they request something too small I think depending on exactly how the transaction goes, he is also at significant risk of being sued if something ever goes down at one of these places with a non-compliant sign that he provided.

And yes, I'll walk past a clearly non-compliant (e.g. ghost-busters) sign. Is that inconsistent? It doesn't seem so to me, but you may judge for yourself. I did measure up a sign recently and later found it was slightly under size (~7/8" letters) but I didn't carry there. It was also on city-owned property. Would I in the future? Maybe. Who's kicking in for my legal defense? Buehler?

[fickman]

Well, I doubt people call this guy up and say, "I would like a sign that says, [insert 30.06 exact wording here]. I'd like it in blue and helvetica font." I think instead people either hear that this guy makes 30.06 signs, or they call up and ask for a 30.06 sign. Since he knows what is required for a 30.06 sign, delivering something that is non-compliant is at the least, dishonest. If he asks what size they want and they request something too small I think depending on exactly how the transaction goes, he is also at significant risk of being sued if something ever goes down at one of these places with a non-compliant sign that he provided.

We're all taking wild guesses here, but most print shops require you to submit what you want either on paper or as a soft copy. You fill out an order form that shows the specifics of everything you want before they produce your project. If the customers ask for a smaller size and he refuses to coach them about the law, he cannot get into trouble.

He is not certifying these signs for them. He is not providing legal counsel to his customers. He is not interpreting the law for them. That is all their responsibility. He may not even know the law. Since we know he does, he still wouldn't give somebody legal advice, even if he think he knows it that well - that's why we all use "IANAL" in our posts, and we definitely know what we're talking about. For everybody who chimes in and then reminds you that they're not a lawyer, there are another hundred people who read the post and move on. This business owner is like those people. He is under no obligation to collaborate with you from a legal standpoint.

If you need fire exit signs of a certain size and color - that's up to you to order them properly. It's not up to him to go over the fire code with you.

A professional print shop is a lot like Kinko's with bigger and cooler toys. . . whatever you submitted is going to come out the other end, only a lot larger.

[Right2Carry]

The customer has given the owner the specification he should be following when they told him they wanted to buy a 30.06 sign. 30.06 is the specification that the owner should be following in order to comply with the customers request.

I would tend to agree with those who say the guy is dishonest. If a person asks for a 30.06 sign they are asking for a specific type of sign that should meet the requirements listed in 30.06. The owner KNOWS what the requirements for this particular sign are, and asking the customer what size, color, or wording they want is DISHONEST and MISLEADING.

Since he knows exactly what is required for a 30.06 sign to be compliant, selling anything else is just wrong IMHO.

If a customer asks for a 30.06 sign then they should get a sign that meets the requirements of that section or they aren't getting a 30.06 sign. They have asked for a particular type of sign and are entitled to get that sign regardless of how the owner of the print shop feels about it.

I think in a court of law, if the customer asked specifically for a 30.06 sign and got something smaller the owner would be liable because the requirements of a 30.06 sign are spelled out in detail. IMHO if a customer gets anything less then the guy is dishonest and a thief. When someone doesn't get what they pay for it amounts to stealing.

The guy might be doing CHLers a favor, but he is doing his customers a disservice.