Dog encounter

[USA1]

Oh good grief Kevin! Not you too!!

[joe817]

Oh good grief Kevin! Not you too!!

YOU stay out of it! It's all your fault you....you....you....INSTIGATOR!

( )

[C-dub]

Sec.822.013.DOGS OR COYOTES THAT ATTACK ANIMALS.A (a)
dog or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently
attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by:
(1)any person witnessing the attack; or
(2)the attacked animal ’s owner or a person acting on
behalf of the owner if the owner or person has knowledge of the
attack.
(b)person who kills a dog or coyote as provided by this
section is not liable for damages to the owner, keeper, or person in
control of the dog or coyote.

I find it odd that the above regulation addresses when dogs attack animals, but not humans. That may be addressed elsewhere in Vernon's Statutes, but I sure don't know where to find it!

NOTE: I'm no lawyer to be sure, and the above is merely my opinion. Just my $.02 worth.

Could I be reading this correctly in a different way? I think it does give one the right to prevent an attack on a person. The way I read it I think where it refers to animals (I've bolded it) it means that we can kill the dog or coyote if it has recently attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls and we find it after the fact. Kind of like when a bear is hunted and killed after attacking a person.

[lws380]

If a dog like that got that close to a stroller, I think i may have had to shoot it. I don't know how a dog thinks and don't care to learn the hard way.

You should have been on the phone to the police, did you have your cell phone, even though no weapon? I would have also had a little talk with the owner. Unfortunately, the dog only does what it wants to naturally do. The owner is the problem for not controlling his animal. In my county they are pretty serious about stray dogs after some attacks across the county several years ago. I'm in a rural area and many land owners will kill a loose dog without blinking an eye. Plus that gives them a little practice before deer season starts.

[A-R]

Adding on to Joe's comment about Health and Safety Code Title 10 Chapter 822 .... section 822.005 ATTACK BY DOG specifies specific CRIMINAL PENALTIES up to a third-degree felony for the OWNER of a dog that attacks humans. IANAL

Above being said, plus the unpredictable nature of any animal, especially a loose dog, I would take what happened to OP as a very serious threat. If the dog is snarling, growling, and approaches within a few feet of my family and cannot be instantly scared away by yelling and waving arms, I would not hesitate to put the animal down. Deal with the consequences later.

I knew a young woman in college who had been mauled by a pit bull as a young child. Dozens of surgeries and literally hundreds of thousands of dollars later this beautiful young woman still had significant scars on her face that caused strangers to do a double-take when they first met her. It was/is - obviously - a lifelong burden for this poor woman. And she is alive to experience it. Others who are attacked by aggressive animals are not so lucky.

A pair of aggressive dogs got loose in my neighborhood recently and mauled a much smaller dog owned by my neighbors. The owner of the attacking dogs paid all the vet bills for my neighbor and now keeps his dogs strictly on a leash (they were unleashed and sitting next to the owner in his open garage when my neighbors walked by with their little dog). Neither of these attacking dogs are of the "typical" breeds with aggressive reputations - some form of retrievers, I believe.

My wife and I and our two young children walk by this same house often on evening strolls. After hearing this story, I told me wife that if I ever saw these dogs growling and running toward our two young children I would shoot the dogs in their own yard before they hit the concrete of the sidewalk. Who knows if a small child making shrieking noises from the sidewalk would set off these dogs same as a small yapping dog already did.

Point of all this is - rightly or wrongly - I would be MORE INCLINED to shoot an aggressive dog sooner than an aggressive human. I guess I figure a human who is yelling and cussing and carrying on is more predictable than the equivalent from a dog. Plus dogs are generally faster, and more violent/dangerous in and of themselves (sharp teeth etc). I would give a human more leeway to reconsider and back away than a dog. Either way, at first sign of potentially life-threatening aggression by either species, my gun is drawn and aimed at the aggressor. If I feel there is time, the human might get a "BACK AWAY NOW!" whereas the dog likely would just get the BANG.

[srothstein]

katjon1 and LostinAustin,

While this has been discussed in several other places in the past, no one has yet pointed out to you in this thread that there is a clause in the Penal Code that does cover defense against attacking dogs. Chapter 9 gives you the defense of necessity. It does not mention dogs directly, but says that you can do almost anything to protect yourself if the harm caused by your doing it is less than the harm caused by allowing the other activity to continue. The key point is that your actions must be reasonable.

Other than members of PETA and some (not all) members of HSUS, the average person is going to agree that protecting a child in a stroller from an attacking dog is a reasonable action. I think I would have shot the dog as it approached the stroller.

Obviously, you must have done something right in this case since everyone went home unharmed. I understand why you would want to know in case of future attacks though. So, my first answer is to always protect yourself and your family from any attacking animal. A gun works well if you are willing to use it (dogs don't seem to understand the threat implied in pointing it at them ). Pepper spray was actually first invented (as I understand it, may be wrong) by the post office as a dog repellent for its carriers. This may be apocryphal but it works better on dogs than on some people. Tasers are NOT recommended for use on animals as they seem to want to attack worse as soon as the charge stops.

[03Lightningrocks]

I would have shot the dog if I could be sure of a good back stop. One item worthy of mention for those who have never shot an animal. A bullet will most likely go in and come out the opposite side of a dog. be sure of your back stop. It would certainly turn bad if your round struck a person after exiting the dog. Pavement and sidewalks are not a good back stop.

[KD5NRH]

At one point, the dog got within one arms length of the stroller, where I attempted to kick it away. I did not drive it away, but at least i got the dogs attention away from the stroller and on to me.

There are a lot of variables here, but one that hasn't been brought up yet is what type of stroller was the child in? We have an umbrella stroller for most car trips, but we also use one that's more of a convertible pram style: much larger, and when in the reclined position, the baby is entirely enclosed from below. (Even in the stroller configuration only the legs are really exposed, but I'd still be a lot more careful then.)

With the umbrella stroller, it's light and compact enough that, if I had time, I'd probably just pick the whole thing up and let my steel-toes and my wife deal with the dog if it continues. With the other one, that's not an option, so I'd concentrate on getting and staying between the dog and the baby. If it attacks me or gets past me to the stroller, I will provide new definitions of excessive force for the cleanup crew to learn from.

[dac1842]

The real question here is at any time was the life of a person endangered? If so then the use of deadly force is justified. However I would suggest one thing. I carry pepper spray in my pocket as a less than lethal response to non lethal threats, or at threats that start as non lethal. Use the pepper spray on dog first.

IF you decide to shoot the dog, I am sure you are aware of all the other concerns that go with that. i.e. where is the bullet going if I miss? Where is the bullet going if it goes through the dog? Out in the country this is probably a no brainer, shoot the mut, but in city neighborhood there are other considerations. You have to decide if it merits shooting the dog..

Since the dog is pit bull, odds are the police would have said oh well, sucks to be a pit bull today! I would have a conversation with the owner and make sure he/she understands the responsibility and liability they have.

[KD5NRH]

The real question here is at any time was the life of a person endangered? If so then the use of deadly force is justified. However I would suggest one thing. I carry pepper spray in my pocket as a less than lethal response to non lethal threats, or at threats that start as non lethal. Use the pepper spray on dog first.

The spray I carry (Kimber Guardian Angel) is a bit less suited to a fast-moving target like a charging dog. I've already got so much other junk on me that adding another spray unit would be silly, and short of a belt holster, I wouldn't have anywhere left to carry it that I could expect to get to it in a hurry.

IF you decide to shoot the dog, I am sure you are aware of all the other concerns that go with that. i.e. where is the bullet going if I miss?

Unless the dog is either six feet tall or flying when it's attacking me or my child within arm's reach, the bullet will be going into the ground at a steep angle within 8-10 feet of me. Even asphalt or concrete is unlikely to produce a dangerous ricochet with those angles. If for whatever reason I feel it is necessary to fire at a dog farther away, then it will be necessary - and possible in the time available - to check the rest of the area.

[Abraham]

Two days ago I had a pit bull chase me while on my bicycle.

Fortunately, he seemed more inclined to chase as sport, not kill. By that I mean he wasn't snarlingly aggressive and seemed more to be play chasing, but how can I be certain? I can't. I sprayed him with pepper spray when he almost close enough to bite.

I've had other dogs come after me that initially seemed harmless until they got within biting distance, then started in with determined aggression - so you can't be certain anytime a dog comes after you if he just chasing for sport or attack.

If a dog is a potentially lethal danger like a pit, I'm taking no chances. I'm spraying and hoping...If spraying doesn't change his mind, then I'm prepared to take other measures if my life's in danger.

I did have a Texas Highway Patrolman tell me a dog would actually have to bite me to be justified in shooting the dog in self defense. I think that was his uninformed opinion and not the law.

[joe817]

Abraham, I think you are the first person who gave a personal account of the use of pepper spray on a dog:

I sprayed him with pepper spray when he almost close enough to bite.

How effective was it? I'd like to hear more, if you don't mind going into more detail.

[frazzled]

I think that way also. A 230gr resolution. However, you know how people get with pets. There would definitely be a back lash. Dog rights people versus pit bull haters versus family protectionist versus excessive force versus discharging weapon in city limits, and on and on...

"I feared for the safety of my family!" is absolutely right IMHO. What bothers me is the split second that I would think in my head that I am going to be at ground zero of a huge cluster....or that that is someone's pet!

My daughter at 7yo had a pit bull get excited b/c a small dog had come in to the area and the PB lunged at the 7yo's face and snapped. She was his height and I am sure that he could not distinguish who was the aggressor and who wasn't. I quickly exhibited to him who was the alpha dog. Man did I get in trouble. My oldest daughters boy friend (his dog) looked at me like why was I trying to crash his dogs head on the cement....and on and on.

Had I been carrying I probably would have eliminated the threat. Hard to say... Just don't put ANY of my kids in danger!

Even as I type this, I wrestle with the way I would resolve this in my mind. My dad was a no bull person and I know exactly what he would have done and that is the way he taught me also.

Help me out forum! I need to get this resolved in my mind in the event I ever face it armed!

I've had apit as well-a quite large one (mixed, pushing 100 lbs). Gentle as a babe with people. But it taughtme what they can do.

If a pit bull, rottweiler or similar alrge dog is loose and coming at me or family then its a real, lethal threat to them. I will stop that threat. Its one reason I have a chl, after a couple of similar encounters. I love dogs, and find the worst dog better than most people. It would tear me apart but I would do whats necessary.

[HankB]

I like dogs, and have found that most dogs that approach are going to be friendly or curious - scratch 'em behind the ears, and you've made a new friend.

But if a large, loose dog came at me or mine in an aggressive manner I'd shoot it without a second thought.

We've had a few instances around the Austin area of loose dogs attacking people, and just a few miles from my home there have been packs of dogs attacking livestock - not a good situation, and I'm not going to put myself at risk by declining to shoot what I judge to be a dog/dogs that pose an immediate danger.

[john L]

I am a dog lover and have never found a dog I couldn't back down by standing my ground. That being said, I would of put myself between the stroller and the dog; had it made an attack it would have been me getting bitten and of course it would of been shot at that point. Law enforcement would probably not give you a bad time what so ever if you have a bite or torn pants to show it was in attack mode.