Bad night to take the small gun...

[Oldgringo]

Several opined:

... if you are going to carry, then you need to grow up, stop drinking, and get new friends that also have grown up and stopped drinking.

. Your world is way too exciting to be carrying a gun.

[Excaliber]

2. I am as much a nut for legal detail and being prepared for the aftermath and all that as anyone, and it is great fun to dissect how the legal machinations might play out, but if that is what you -- or any of us -- is thinking about when threatened, we are setting our selves up for failure. If you are confronted with a threat, you should not be focusing on what the DA might think about it afterward, you should be focusing on what the threat is, and how to best disengage or counter it. You have to survive, preferably without being maimed for life, before you even get to the that point, so focus on that. You don't blast somebody for mouthing off, but neither should you hesitate when threatened with imminent deadly force or serious injury. Even if your own stupidity got you into a bad situation, you have to survive it relatively intact to have a chance to plead your case.

Deciding what to do in a life threatening situation requires both legal and tactical analysis. It's not an either/or situation. If one focuses on only one or the other, he'll likely end up in the morgue or the hospital as you suggested, or in prison.

Many of those with first hand knowledge maintain that the last result doesn't look a whole lot better than the first two once you're in it.

Preplanning, what iffing, good security practices at home, and a simple rule of thumb criterion like, "Is deadly force really the only reasonable way to protect innocent life in this situation?" can substantially increase one's ability to make good legal and tactical judgments under stress, and greatly reduce the risk of undesirable outcomes.

I don't care how many people have been scared off or killed with one, there are a lot more who have been shot with handguns of all calibers and kept right on moving -- meaning they were still able to fight and kill and maim. It doesn't matter that it is technically possible to kill five people with a five shot gun -- what you need is as much probability that you can STOP someone -- or several someones -- as fast as possible before he shoots you or guts you with a knife, or simply bashes your head in. There are no guarantees, but your probability of stopping someone is much better with multiple shots for each opponent. Yeah maybe after the first shot everyone would run out of the room, but that is relying on hope and chance -- thin reeds.

I agree with you that if the situation had turned deadly and defensive deadly force was justified, a 5 shot snubby would very likely not have solved the problem given the number of potential opponents, their inebriated state, and very close quarters without available cover. If the aggressors didn't cut and run at the first shot (and that's not something to be counted on), the defender would almost certainly have left the scene on a gurney.

However, as I see it, the choice of handgun didn't matter much here and would have had little influence on the outcome. A defender armed with a high cap semiauto in a caliber that begins with a 4 would very likely fail to achieve stops on all aggressors before they did serious or permanent damage to him. At apartment living room distances, all of them could have been all over him in less than 1 second, and the probability of successfully achieving 3 or more dynamic stops within that time frame is zero. He still in all probability would have exited on that gurney.

IMHO, the primary critical error here was in admitting uninvited and potentially hostile individuals into the home and then failing to relock the door so an additional uninvited person could freely enter. This is where pre planning and a bit of horse sense could have easily prevented a very volatile and dangerous situation from developing in the first place.

[The Annoyed Man]

3. Here's where I seriously disagree with some posters above -- refresh your coffee, this is a long one: Yes you were seriously under-weaponed for what you were facing. I have a five shot snub too and I like it, but no they are not first-choice self-defense guns, especially if facing more than one opponent -- they are specialized up-close back up guns. You were quite possibly looking at a four vs one fight, with at least one of your opponents armed with a knife at close range. (i.e. could you really count on your buddy to pitch in and fight? Probably just you).

I don't care how many people have been scared off or killed with one, there are a lot more who have been shot with handguns of all calibers and kept right on moving -- meaning they were still able to fight and kill and maim. It doesn't matter that it is technically possible to kill five people with a five shot gun -- what you need is as much probability that you can STOP someone -- or several someones -- as fast as possible before he shoots you or guts you with a knife, or simply bashes your head in. There are no guarantees, but your probability of stopping someone is much better with multiple shots for each opponent. Yeah maybe after the first shot everyone would run out of the room, but that is relying on hope and chance -- thin reeds.

You mentioned you have Gold Dots -- they have a very good record with police shootings, but they are not magic. As a first responder I treated an acquaintance who accidentally shot himself lengthwise through the thigh (about 8-10 inches of flesh) with a .40 Gold Dot -- and didn't even know it until he picked the bullet up off the floor and wondered why it was fully expanded. In fact, there was so little pain, and he was so embarrassed, he did not call 911 and thought he might be able to "walk it off." He changed his mind when the pain and swelling hit, but that didn't happen for several minutes. He wasn't even pumped up for fight, he was just clumsy putting a gun in his pocket. Had he wanted to clobber someone, he was still perfectly capable of doing so.

There's a nice long thread here http://warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=57406" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with lots of first hand accounts of being shot. What's interesting in many of these, and other accounts I have searched out, is that most people who are not killed right away do not even realize they have been shot, never mind stopped or even slowed down. That means to stop someone with a hand gun you are going to need to either put one right in the CNS (and even a brain shot is not a guarantee) or you are going to need time and several rounds into various vascular and mobility structures to stop them. Five shot snub versus three opponents might do the job, but it is a weak bet. One or two shots from any handgun, snub or 1911, is not a good bet. Better than nothing, but at the ranges you were talking about, maybe not even better than a knife.

Get a hi cap semi-auto -- it really isn't that much more difficult to carry than a snub -- and maybe keep your snub and a knife in your pockets for back up. No guarantee of success, but much better odds than a snub all by itself. (and oh BTW, even if you did have some speedloaders and strips, when were you going to reload in an apartment living room-sized fight with three guys and a gal?)

4. Some new, wiser friends might help, but even "sensible" people find girlfriends or boyfriends that turn out to be loonies, and then you have to deal with that.

Good luck.

ELB, I want to emphasize that I advise and practice carrying more than a 5 shot snubby myself for the most part. I was merely stating that a .38 Special is a real gun.

I worked in an ER for years, and have seen people survive multiple hits from hard hitting calibers. I've seen a guy with 5 or 6 hits from a .38 in the upper torso walk into our ER under his own power. I've also seen people, as I'm sure you have too, shot dead with one round of .22 LR. My point was that, while the OP may have been undergunned from a capacity POV, he certainly was not undergunned from a caliber POV, and a 5 shot snubby is a lethal weapon; and my comment was directed at the person who suggested that he should get a "real gun." Yes, it is better to be armed with a heavier caliber in higher capacity, but it still equally true that the 5 shot snubby in your pocket beats the high cap .40 you left at home.

Interesting thread you linked to by the way. I read every page of it. I've never been shot myself, but I've got a lot of experience with gunshot patients, and most everything I read there is consistent with my own observations, and also with the experience of my father in Cushman's Pocket at Iwo Jima. My dad was hit with a rifle round right in the solar plexus. The bullet hit one of the brass buttons on his jacket, shattering both the button and the bullet jacketing, and deflecting the lead core a little to the left. The bullet entered his chest wall, dissecting between two of his ribs, but staying in the chest wall, and exited about the middle of his back, 2 or 3 inches to the left of his spine. He was upright, but on his knees when the bullet struck him. He said the impact knocked him over backwards and knocked the wind out of him. He said that after he got his breath back, the wound track began to burn terribly, and it hurt like that for about 15 minutes, and then it all went numb. He described the burning as having a red hot poker run through him and twisted around inside. He said that he stuck his thumbs into the entrance and exit wounds until he could be treated by a corpsman. (Sadly, the corpsman who treated him was hit twice while working on my dad - once in the arm, and once in the leg, breaking his femur. When he finished, he laid down and started to talk my dad through treating him. While my dad was doing so, the corpsman was hit in the head and killed instantly.) Dad stayed in the fight for approximately 24 hours after being wounded until he could be evacuated, although he said that he alternated between being combat effective and not being combat effective, according to how much morphine he had been given. But his particular action was extremely grim, and he spent part of the time (as did most of the other survivors) pulling the bodies of already dead marines on top of himself to soak up the shrapnel from the intense mortar barrage he was under at the time. In the end, he was one of 10 survivors out of two rifle companies, 9 of whom were wounded, and their combat effectiveness was down to zero.

[karder]

The "big gun-small gun" debate is one every CHL holder seems to spend a lot of time thinking about, myself included. While I value everyones opinions here, I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that a 5-shot snubby is not adequate for 99% of all self-defense situations. There is no gun that is the choice perfect 100% of the time. In a real world situation, once someone fires a shot, people scatter. I just don't believe that if you were to draw and fire that first shot in self-defense, that the actor's friends would continue advancing until you had shot the first 5. ANYTHING is possible of course, but even with alcohol involved, this is not a likely event. What's that saying about "nothing sobers up a drunk faster than a police car driving behind him"? While we know this is not completely accurate, I think that a shot being fired into your buddies chest, would make a drunk pop back to reality for a second or two. I know everyone is probably thinking I am a snubby carrier, but no. I may be a hypocrite, but I carry either a colt commander or an HK .40. The reason is because I try to be prepared for the dreaded "Columbine" situation. If I have to repel an attack carried out by a shooter with a carbine, I feel that those two pistols give me sufficient accuracy from a distance and enough "knockdown" power from 10-20 yards out. If my primary objective is easy concealment and self defense at a point blank range, I would be very secure with the 5 shot .38.
I am really enjoying this forum as I am hearing so many different points of view on this, and other subjects, so feel free to let me have it for this post. (maybe my real problem is that I think the 2-shot derringers are super cool and I really want one, so I need to justify the capacity of a 5-shot! I am going to sneak a bond arms snake slayer into my collection if I can hide if from my wife!).

[ELB]

ELB, I want to emphasize that I advise and practice carrying more than a 5 shot snubby myself for the most part. I was merely stating that a .38 Special is a real gun.

Point taken. I do (also) think the snubby is a real gun, in real caliber, and effective for last-ditch, up-close, in-your face encounter with an opponent -- and I have both J-frames and a Colt six-shot DS. I sure wouldn't stand in front of one being fired! But for face-offs with multiple opponents -- and I think that occurs a bit more than 1% of the time these days -- nothing beats more firepower (meaning more bullets of at least 9mm/.38). Also, you don't get to choose your encounter, when it happens (so I always haul around my Hi Power). For that matter, I think a hi cap semi-auto is less than desirable, but it is tough to carry a rifle or shot gun around on a 24/7 basis. As your dad found out (and God Bless him and the corpsman), a when you step into rifle velocity territory, the equation and the effects change radically. Handgun rounds just don't have enough velocity to have the shock effect that rifle slugs do.

Thanks for sharing your experience also, that was interesting.

[03Lightningrocks]

I may be be wrong, but under the circumstances described here, you had more than enough rounds. If the room didn't clear within seconds after you pulled the gun, it would right after you fired the first shot. I know some folks TALK about being tough and rushing a guy firing a gun but they rarely if ever actually do it. Especially punks like the ones you speak of in the OP.

I am curious about something. This is about your third post where you mention being involved with ignorant drunks in a threatening situation. Have you considered re-evaluating some of your associations? In my younger days...much younger...I too liked the party scene. Many times it returned experiences just like the ones you mention on this forum. I realized that if I continued to live my life in that manner, it would eventually lead to either my demise or lead to an old age of never having a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of. As the younger posters around here like to post..."Just Saying".

[Fangs]

I know alcohol doesn't have that many fans on this board, but for me the novelty hasn't worn off yet. I didn't start drinking until I was 21, and I took 4 or 5 months off while I was on crutches recovering from a foot injury. I'm currently 22. My partying is usually restricted to one or two nights a week, and I leave the guns out of it. Please keep in mind that this situation happened while I was watching TV at a friend's house, not out partying or drinking at all. They came there for him and I really do believe that my presence kept him from getting a severe beating. In part because I had met one of the guys at a party previously. Just sayin'

Andrew weighs maybe 150 pounds, think typical computer nerd. I wasn't really counting on him to help if it got physical.

Having only the small gun bothered me because I usually carry a .40 Beretta PX4 14+1 and at least one spare 17 round mag with the 642 being a recent purchase for use as a BUG (after reading TAM's endorsement for it in several threads and then trying one out I opted for the 642 instead of a Khar PM40). This was the first time I was without the PX4. I've only shot about 50 rounds through the 642, having bought it only a week or two ago. It was in an uncle mike's pocket holster in jeans I purchased that day with big enough pockets specifically so it could fit. I guess so much of it was different from what I'm used to that it made me a little more uncomfortable than if I'd been carrying that gun for a month or two.

I fully expected to have to empty the gun and then keep going barehanded or with my pocket knife if I had a chance to reach for it.

[Keith B]

I know alcohol doesn't have that many fans on this board, but for me the novelty hasn't worn off yet. I didn't start drinking until I was 21, and I took 4 or 5 months off while I was on crutches recovering from a foot injury. I'm currently 22. My partying is usually restricted to one or two nights a week, and I leave the guns out of it. Please keep in mind that this situation happened while I was watching TV at a friend's house, not out partying or drinking at all. They came there for him and I really do believe that my presence kept him from getting a severe beating. In part because I had met one of the guys at a party previously. Just sayin'

Andrew weighs maybe 150 pounds, think typical computer nerd. I wasn't really counting on him to help if it got physical.

Having only the small gun bothered me because I usually carry a .40 Beretta PX4 14+1 and at least one spare 17 round mag with the 642 being a recent purchase for use as a BUG (after reading TAM's endorsement for it in several threads and then trying one out I opted for the 642 instead of a Khar PM40). This was the first time I was without the PX4. I've only shot about 50 rounds through the 642, having bought it only a week or two ago. It was in an uncle mike's pocket holster in jeans I purchased that day with big enough pockets specifically so it could fit. I guess so much of it was different from what I'm used to that it made me a little more uncomfortable than if I'd been carrying that gun for a month or two.

I fully expected to have to empty the gun and then keep going barehanded or with my pocket knife if I had a chance to reach for it.

This 'small gun' thing as far as number of rounds is a fallacy in my opinion. I have been involved in two different shootings as a LEO, and both required 1 round from the officer to end the confrontation; one from a .357 and one from a 12 gauge with 00 buck. I was not the shooter, but did witness the events.

In a case of self defense, this imagined gunfight shootout scenario will be a extremely remote possibility. If 5 properly placed rounds from a .38 at basically point-blank range don't stop the guy, then you probably are not going to get a chance to fire the other 10 rounds.

Also, adding alcohol to a subject that has a potential to do you harm is just numbing any feelings and psychological impact he might have from being struck by a bullet(s). If you just hit him superficially, then he will have a greater chance at still being able to come after you in close quarters.

As others have said, the best thing you can do is make the decision to party and run with those that do, or decide to carry and steer clear of these types of individuals that you have to worry about. IMO you can't have your cake and eat it too in this case.

[03Lightningrocks]

LOL...The alcohol is not the issue...heck...I love me some drinking, in moderation. It is the places you do it and the peer group I was questioning. Some of these "tough guys" you hang with sound like nothing but trouble. Find some friendly drunks...LOL...or at least some who are smart enough to know that your not cool based on how many knuckles you have broken. OK... sorry I will turn off the Dad thing now...LOL.

[Oldgringo]

Does the name Walter Mitty ring any bells ... anywhere?

[Dragonfighter]

Danny Kaye...loved that movie. I kinda identified with it...a little

[03Lightningrocks]

OK...I had to Google Walter Mitty....LOL.

[.45mac.40]

ELB .... and .... many others ....RIGHT ON !
I've seen afew NVA s .... ((Charlie)) AND afew Deer, who where shot.
They were looking back at me .... THEY WERE DEAD ... but they didn't know it.
ELB's comment about tha' BG, possibly hurting you, at this time IS very real !
Thanks guys ... (man, I sure learn alot here !!)
Mac

[TexasAggie]

Trying to put myself in your shoes.
Two guys come in, and there were two of you.
Similar sizes.
Discounting the females as getting involved (probably mistake on my part)
No weapons displayed. Kitchen knives close by is a bit weak IMHO.

And you are going to use your pistol if a fight breaks out?
I just don't see enough disparity in force.
And you guys let them in voluntarily (except for the ex)

I don't know that I would be confidant that the law would view that in my favor.

It's cool to have and admire your weapon. But to analyze this as if you were truly in fear of your life (based upon your description) is ridiculous and more in line as though you're seeking a reason to shoot. NOT flaming you. I wasn't there. But I personally do NOT trust the law to be on my side no matter what happens. I simply have little faith in our government to side with "the good guy." That being said, you need to stop looking for reasons to pull your weapon. Sounds to me like an extremely immature group of morons (not you, but the ex chickie and her dopey douche bags)

[mr.72]

I know alcohol doesn't have that many fans on this board, but for me the novelty hasn't worn off yet. I didn't start drinking until I was 21, and I took 4 or 5 months off while I was on crutches recovering from a foot injury. I'm currently 22.

I would have never guessed...

give the guns to your dad until you grow up enough to figure this out. IMHO.