To Chamber or not to Chamber?

[frazzled]

I agree. With the appropriate protective hard body holster-which to me is the real key- and a good machine there should be no issue.

As a counterpoint, I've seen safeties get moved accidentally while in holster. Heck I've had a kimber get dropped and the hammer cock back in the process. I still can't figure that one out. I've a gear shift come off in my hand and had to drive a car home starting and stopping in 4th gear only. Their argument is things happen.

[seamusTX]

Things happen. One of the things that happens is that a thug comes out of nowhere and shoves a weapon in your face.

I do agree that how and what to carry is a personal decision for CHL holders. Several military forces require their personnel to carry without a round in the chamber.

- Jim

[nils]

"But if you're really gonna be 100% prepared, shouldn't you carry the gun unholstered? The delay in racking the slide is much less than the delay to draw from a holster. So, we should walk around with our gun drawn and finger on the trigger to be "100% prepared for a bad situation." Okay, it's against the law, but if it wasn't, would you? Of course not. It's too risky and likely to end up with you putting some good guys in the hospital or grave. (Otherwise, the 4 rules are not needed.) So, there's an axis of readiness vs. safety, ranging from an unloaded gun with trigger lock in a safe on one end, to a drawn, aimed, loaded weapon with finger on the trigger on the other end. We all pick a spot on the scale. I'm not saying that those who carry with one in the chamber are morons waiting to Plaxico themselves, so can't be just back it down a notch and agree to disagree?"----Slow Dave


I really hope that you're kidding...and my credibility is fine. I follow the law 100%, so I prepare myself as much as the law allows me to. If your comment was supposed to humorous, nice try. If it wasn't, you've certainly re-enforced your moniker. No offense intended, but I didn't get where you were going with your criticism. Have a good one Dave....and be careful(BTW, I spent a weekend in San Antonio last month, and it was great).

[fm2]

The manual timing was someone with a stopwatch yelling "go" and hitting the start button and then hitting the stop button when the first shot was fired. Not a perfect measurement by any means, and I was drawing from a holster. As I recall, it was my OWB (outside waistband... dangit, now I have to spell it out ) holster. So results could be different with an IWB (inside ...) holster, but no way is it gonna be the 3-5 seconds that some have called out.

Did you try this with a cover garment?

Appreciate the explanation of the club thing, but I think it is more typically someone just overstating things in an attempt to emphasize their point. I think that destroys your credibility. To your point, one could say that "a weapon w/o one in the chamber makes a poor club" but you could not say that it is only as useful as a club for self defense reasons. Unless of course, you are referring to a club that fires lethal rounds after a <0.1 sec delay for racking the slide.

Me?

p.s. If you still don't believe that someone can draw, rack the slide, and get off the first shot quickly, search back through for the youtube video of the guy drawing from an IWB holster under a t-shirt with amazing shooting. It's on here somewhere. But... he DID have both hands available. EDIT: here's one: youtube draw and rack... FAST!

He's quick, but I think that's part of what Bill was talking about. That's a different context than a spontanious criminal assault.

[SlowDave]

I can also tell you that time to draw from a proper holster until target acquisition should be considerably less than the time it takes you to pull the gun up from open carry, rack the slide and then acquire the target. Also, the holster is a added level of safety if it is properly designed and covers the trigger.

I didn't argue pulling from open carry, I was arguing the difference between racking the slide (gun already in hand) vs. drawing. I'm saying if we stand facing the target, me with gun (no round in chamber) in my hand, you with gun in holster (and round in chamber), I'm saying I can get off a shot before you. Kind of academic, sarcastic comparison though.

Agree with the holster being a big piece of the safety equation.

[SlowDave]

"But if you're really gonna be 100% prepared, shouldn't you carry the gun unholstered? The delay in racking the slide is much less than the delay to draw from a holster. So, we should walk around with our gun drawn and finger on the trigger to be "100% prepared for a bad situation." Okay, it's against the law, but if it wasn't, would you? Of course not. It's too risky and likely to end up with you putting some good guys in the hospital or grave. (Otherwise, the 4 rules are not needed.) So, there's an axis of readiness vs. safety, ranging from an unloaded gun with trigger lock in a safe on one end, to a drawn, aimed, loaded weapon with finger on the trigger on the other end. We all pick a spot on the scale. I'm not saying that those who carry with one in the chamber are morons waiting to Plaxico themselves, so can't be just back it down a notch and agree to disagree?"

I really hope that you're kidding...and my credibility is fine. I follow the law 100%, so I prepare myself as much as the law allows me to. If your comment was supposed to humorous, nice try. If it wasn't, you've certainly re-enforced your moniker. No offense intended, but I didn't get where you were going with your criticism. Have a good one Dave....and be careful(BTW, I spent a weekend in San Antonio last month, and it was great).

No, I was going the club route with overstatement. So, do I read that to say that if it were legal, you would walk around everywhere with your gun in your hand, finger on the trigger (i.e. as prepared as the law allows)? Interesting.

Dang, busting on my screen name. I differ and think (good-natured) offense was intended, but I don't really get offended so same difference. All good.

Glad you enjoyed San Antonio on your visit. And happy concealed carrying! Hopefully you'll have my back when I'm fumbling around trying to get a round in the chamber.

[heliguy972]

Chambered or unchambered is irrelevant. Use what you TRAIN with. If you train and are competent in either situation, you are best prepared to respond quickly and accurately...

[AEA]

If you don't have one in the pipe, you may as well just be carrying a framing hammer.

[ScottDLS]

Everybody seems to be talking about semi-auto's. If you're really concerned you could carry a revolver with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Still could fire with one pull of the trigger vs. awkwardness of racking the slide on a semi-auto. Modern revolvers have firing pin blocking bars and floating pins, just like the semi-autos. Personally I trust these mechanisms on chambered revolvers and SA's. But if you're really worried, carry a revolver on an empty chamber. You'll have 4-5 shots at best, but you may get that critical first one off faster.

When I first started to carry concealed, my opinion was that if the average CHL needed more than the 5-6 shots in a revolver, he was either going to be dead, or should have had a rifle (with a 30rd mag). Now I usually carry a 92F or SIG P226 with 15+1. I have no problem carrying a modern semi-auto chambered with hammer down.
---------
I was in the Navy in late '80's-early 90's. The "officer of the deck" usually had an empty .45 1911 Colt holstered with one mag (with 3 rounds) in a pouch. Idiotic if you ask me. I guess you could beat the drunk charging up the brow ("gangplank") with the .45. Then again, the Navy was never the leader in small arms tactics (except maybe the SEALS). When Saddam invaded Kuwait in '91, I was courageously defending my destroyer in Norfolk, VA from the hoards of union and non-union shipyard workers "fixing" it. They decided to give us a flak jacket, helmet and M-14 with selector welded to semi. Mag w/ 3 rounds in a pouch. This was better because I could beat the crack dealers better with an M-14.

[AEA]

When I was in the Navy at my last assignment (USS Bowen FF-1079) I was often the OOD and I carried a telescope that was only an ornament. My Petty Officer of the Watch had the .45 1911 and I don't know if it was loaded or not.

[fm2]

Everybody seems to be talking about semi-auto's. If you're really concerned you could carry a revolver with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Still could fire with one pull of the trigger vs. awkwardness of racking the slide on a semi-auto. Modern revolvers have firing pin blocking bars and floating pins, just like the semi-autos. Personally I trust these mechanisms on chambered revolvers and SA's. But if you're really worried, carry a revolver on an empty chamber. You'll have 4-5 shots at best, but you may get that critical first one off faster.

That's a good option. Revolvers become more viable with higher capacity models now available.

[Bill]

With a speed loader, you can put 12 down the pipe pretty fast, although I prefer putting 18 down the pipe with my Glock

[joe817]

I have held off commenting as I've read this thread, and doing a lot of soul searching asking myself the same question as the title of this thread.

I have 2 pistols. One is a DA/SA Ruger P-95, and the other a nice little Colt Government .380 which is SAO.

I would feel VERY comfortable carrying the Ruger with one in the chamber as the first round fired would be from double action mode. And safety would be off. No problem at all doing that. But trying to conceal the Ruger would be very difficult if not impossible. I'm not a large guy. It is simply to large and to wide to fit my body type. I could only wear it in the winter months WITH a coat over my other clothes. And wearing a coat in the winter probably amounts to 10-12 times per year, max. Let's face it, we live in Texas and it just don't get that cold.

So I have decided to carry the Colt. But that is problematic for carrying a round in the chamber. That's because I'm left handed and will wear the Colt on the left side of my body and the safety will be exposed. Strike one for one in the chamber.

In addition the Colt, although it appears in every was a small version of a 1911, does not have a grip safety. Strike 2 against one in the chamber.

Not only that, the "half cock" position that is prevalent on a 1911 is indeed a safety, meaning you cannot pull the trigger when the gun is in half cock position. The Government .380 has a half cock position, but it is not a safety per se. It is only a safety when manually cocking the hammer and your finger slips off the hammer before fully cocked. When it is in half cock position you can actually squeeze the trigger and the hammer will fall on the firing pin. Strike 3 against carrying with one in the chamber.

So I'm stuck with carrying without one in the chamber. I don't like it, but it is what it is. I'll just need to learn to perfect the drawing & racking the slide manuever.

Well, that's my case for not carrying one in the chamber. Comments welcome. (body armor on)

[android]

That's because I'm left handed and will wear the Colt on the left side of my body and the safety will be exposed. Strike one for one in the chamber.

I'm a lefty also. I have dismissed a lot of "right handed" guns. I own some, but won't ever carry them.

You need an ambi pistol like an HK P2000SK. I have v3 which is DA/SA with a decocker. The slide release, and mag release are ambidextrous. The decocker is centered on the back by the hammer, you only use it when holstering anyway.

I'm completely comfortable with the hammer on a round in this gun. The DA pull is long and relatively hard, you ain't going to shoot it unless you mean to. There's an internal firing pin safety as well that doesn't release until the trigger is about 2/3s of the way depressed.

Some of the variants have ambidextrous external safeties though on top of all the rest.

[joe817]

Thanks for the comments android. Mucho appreciated. I'd love a compact or subcompact gun. Ambi guns although ideal for me, isn't a determining factor, as I've mastered the art of using right handed guns very well. I'm not a particular fan of revolvers, but that's just me. There's absolutely nothing wrong with them. It's just my preference to have a semi-auto handgun. I'm also not a fan of the DAO semi-autos either. Nothing wrong with them, but here again, it's just my preference.

Outright purchase of another gun is not in the cards right now. I could always trade the Ruger in for a different gun that had the features I want, but I doubt the boot difference would be attractive.

Ok, now I'm just rambling and thinking out loud. Sorry.