To Chamber or not to Chamber?

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mr.72
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#91

Post by mr.72 »

joe817 wrote: Well, that's my case for not carrying one in the chamber. Comments welcome. (body armor on)
My suggestion is to sell the Colt and use that money to fund a gun that you can carry without handicap. Kahr P380, PM9, MK9, Ruger LCP, etc. I am sure there are dozens of safety-less DAO pistols that are in the approximate size, weight and firepower class as the Colt but do not have an incompatibility with effective defensive carry.

IMHO, carrying without one in the chamber is just not an option. If your pistol choice requires it, then I think that is ample reason to choose another pistol.
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joe817
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#92

Post by joe817 »

Thank you for your comments mr.72. They are well taken and duly noted. :tiphat:
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GaryAdrian
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#93

Post by GaryAdrian »

With pratice, it takes .07 seconds more to draw and rack a glock. I don't plan to be a gun slinger and have a super fast draw, so .07 seconds is not going to make much of a difference. IMO.
Putting the shot in the right place is what you should be worried about though.
Keep your finger out of the trigger until it's time and you'll be fine.
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mr.72
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#94

Post by mr.72 »

GaryAdrian wrote:With pratice, it takes .07 seconds more to draw and rack a glock.
One-handed as well?
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android
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#95

Post by android »

mr.72 wrote:
GaryAdrian wrote:With pratice, it takes .07 seconds more to draw and rack a glock.
One-handed as well?
Back to my assertion that an ambi weapon that is DA/SA with one in the chamber provide the most flexibility.


What if you can't use your strong side? What if you can't use both hands? What if you have an SA and you're fumbling with the safety with your off hand? What if you carry an SA, but you're not cocked?

An ambi DA/SA with the hammer down on a round answers all these questions with the right answer: I can still get off a shot.
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juggernaut
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#96

Post by juggernaut »

Revolver. Springfield XD. Glock.

Fully loaded and ready to go.

Consistent trigger pull shot to shot.

dicion
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#97

Post by dicion »

Yes.

I, am one of those that know that Murphy works too well. I understand your hesitation to trust 'the mechanism'.

That is why I carry a handgun with 4 safeties, a 1911.

Safety 1 - Slide Safety
Safety 2 - Grip Safety
Safety 3 - Firing Pin safety
Safety 4, and the most important type, the grey matter between my ears that tells me not to put my finger on the trigger until I am ready to fire.

So, with those 4 safeties, and the requirement that they ALL must fail or be deactivated for a round to 'accidentally' discharge, I carry cocked, locked, and ready to rock and roll 100% of the time.
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VoiceofReason
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#98

Post by VoiceofReason »

This is my first post on this forum. I have been reading other posts and this seems to be a good source of information for CHL holders.

I have a big problem with carrying “cocked and locked”. I carry a Kimber Pro CDP with one in the chamber and the hammer at “half cock”. You can pull the trigger all day and the hammer will not fall from half cock. You can cock the hammer as you draw from the holster and even if you should accidently pull the trigger while doing so the hammer will not drop until the grip safety is squeezed.

I carry a 32 Beretta “Tomcat” in a pocket holster with one in the chamber. It is double action on the first shot but you really have to pull the trigger hard. The holster prevents you from putting your finger in the trigger guard while drawing it.

I believe I have found a good compromise between speed and safety.

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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#99

Post by dicion »

VoiceofReason wrote:This is my first post on this forum. I have been reading other posts and this seems to be a good source of information for CHL holders.

I have a big problem with carrying “cocked and locked”. I carry a Kimber Pro CDP with one in the chamber and the hammer at “half cock”. You can pull the trigger all day and the hammer will not fall from half cock. You can cock the hammer as you draw from the holster and even if you should accidently pull the trigger while doing so the hammer will not drop until the grip safety is squeezed.

I carry a 32 Beretta “Tomcat” in a pocket holster with one in the chamber. It is double action on the first shot but you really have to pull the trigger hard. The holster prevents you from putting your finger in the trigger guard while drawing it.

I believe I have found a good compromise between speed and safety.
Actually, you are putting yourself at many times more risk than carrying full cocked.

A 1911 is designed to carry fully cocked. The mechanism that holds the hammer all the way back is designed to support it's pull from the spring pretty much indefinitely.

Half-cock was designed as a safety only. It was never meant to hold the hammer for a long period of time. The parts for it are not designed, nor tested for that stress. Over time and repitition, it may wear out a lot faster than full cocked will, and potentially drop the half-cocked hammer on the firing pin! As you can guess, this is not a Good Thing!
Normally, if the sear hooks wore out, and the hammer dropped, half-cock would catch it, as a safety. You have completely negated that safety, and now if it wears out and drops, the only thing it has left to hit is the firing pin.

In ADDITION to the above, in order to GET a loaded 1911 into the half-cocked position, you HAVE to grip the gun, release the slide safety, PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER, AND DROP THE HAMMER ON A LIVE ROUND! Seriously?!

You're disabling ALL the safeties, PULLING THE TRIGGER ON A LIVE ROUND, and trusting yourself to catch the hammer every time, set it gently on the firing pin, and then pull it back halfway again, all without slipping and letting it fall on the pin?!
How is that More Safe?

I was by a wise old man once told that you should never, ever, have to touch the hammer with your thumb on a 1911.



http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Using the "half-cock" as a safety

The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a "fail-safe" and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:

When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it "half cocks" and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn't use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.

Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with "Series 80" type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.
Last edited by dicion on Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:46 pm, edited 9 times in total.

Zee
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#100

Post by Zee »

I used to think 1911 cocked and locked was just completely insane, an accident waiting to happen. After I understood how the whole thing works it seems perfectly normal and completely safe. I used to think loaded/ hammer down on my Makarov was great until I learned more about the risk of slam fire on that model. In both cases my assumption was inaccurate. Typically I read the directions if i can't figure it out on my own. I need to correct that.
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VoiceofReason
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#101

Post by VoiceofReason »

To dicion: I have had my 1911 for over a year. I leave it with a full clip, one in the chamber and on half cock all the time. I check it on a regular basis and have seen no sign of it falling from half cock. Should it ever develop that problem I will find out about it with the chamber empty or with a “snap cap” it it.

As for chambering a round and placing it on half cock, I place a loaded clip in the gun, pull and release the slide, place my handkerchief or other cloth under the hammer and slowly lower the hammer to the half cock position. I then remove the clip, place one more round in it and put it back in the gun. If I am doing this at home, I place my Kevlar vest on the bed and go through this sequence with the muzzle pointed at it. If at the range I go through the sequence with the muzzle pointed down range.

I am 63 years old. My father gave me my first shotgun at the age of 12 and taught me gun safety and hunting. I have worn a Sherriff’s Department badge and carried an S&W 357 in a belt holster. I have had many guns and have never had an accidental discharge. I intend to keep it that way until I die and my son inherits my guns.

Thanks for the advice but with the Kimber you don’t have to let the hammer all the way down then pull it back. You can lower it to half cock directly from full cock and if you release the trigger right after you start to lower the hammer and your thumb slips, the half cock position will catch the hammer.

“I was by a wise old man once told that you should never, ever, have to touch the hammer with your thumb on a 1911.”

I don’t know your definition of “old” but do I qualify?

By the way I love the term “Junior Member” by my name.
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dicion
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#102

Post by dicion »

Lol, Alright, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of the issues surrounding your use of half-cock :)

Personally, the only time my 1911's are not cocked, is when I'm at the range firing them, and then they are only not cocked for a 100th of a second until the slide re-cocks them :)
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VoiceofReason
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#103

Post by VoiceofReason »

dicion: who makes your 1911s? The one on the left looks like my Kimber Pro CDP. The one on the right looks like a sweet carry.

As you can tell, I haven’t been posting on this forum very long. I just found it. How do you post pictures?
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dicion
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#104

Post by dicion »

VoiceofReason wrote:dicion: who makes your 1911s? The one on the left looks like my Kimber Pro CDP. The one on the right looks like a sweet carry.

As you can tell, I haven’t been posting on this forum very long. I just found it. How do you post pictures?
The one on the left is a Colt Combat Elite, the one on the right is a Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry II, and my daily carry.
If I recall correctly, there's quite a few people on this forum that carry a Kimber Ultra of some kind as their daily.

You post pictures by putting a Image
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VoiceofReason
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Re: To Chamber or not to Chamber?

#105

Post by VoiceofReason »

Thanks. :tiphat:
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