Permission to search vehicle?

[kw5kw]

Russ-
I agree that many problems can be solved with a willingness to cooperate and a respectul attitude, which is what I have always offered and walked away each time without a criminal record. If you go looking for trouble...you will find it. This applies all aspects of life in my opinion.

For the sake of conversation......do you feel the same way about LEO searching other parts of your personal property.....your home, yard, boat?

I have nothing to hide... They can come look at anything they wish to, they can inspect my dirty laundry... do it while they looking would be even better. Maybe they're looking for a BG who's escaped or something, for they sure ain't looking for anything I've got.




I think there is a fine line that is easily crossed when it comes to the authority officers have and their practice of abusing it.

People hiding stuff from them gives them that attitude.

For instance: I'm in IT--Ok?
I am a nice guy... (take my word for it.)

People wait until my lunch hour (noon) or my quitting time (5:00) to tell me something's wrong with their printer or internet connection or something else. Anyway it's been that way for 3, 4 or more hours --- yet they wait until I'm ready for lunch or to go home before they tell me about it.

After six years, it's grating on me... they no longer get immediate service; if it took them 3 or 4 hours to tell me, then they can wait until I finish my lunch or till tomorrow to get it fixed.

I didn't used to be this way, but... but, after putting up with just so much abuse, I have developed a bit of an attitude.

Cops are the same way... yet they get it from everyone, including the Good Guys! This I just don't understand. We're the Good Guys... we're the CHL holders. We don't do bad things--that's been proven, so why are we trying to bash the other Good Guys--the LEO's?

Maybe it is time for some of them to get a new line of work, but just as I am here, they are where they are.

We need to put ourselves in their shoes, and not critize them but help them, for theirs is a thankless job.


I generally feel that most people are good people, but I do not want anyone going through my things unless they have a valid reason to do so. My point being that if I am pulled over and an officer just decides to violate my personal belongings out of mere curiosity...

I have not yet met a LEO that did this! Not once in my fifty plus years on this planet.

My ex son-in-law always thought that the cops were out to get him (he had reason to think this as he was not the most honest, upright, outstanding young man to ever hit this planet.


So, when he got pulled over, he was in their face... they always 'looked' for something...anything to put is sorry behind back behind bars where he belonged. And, you know what? I was very glad that they did. Look for any excuse to put his sorry behind back in jail that is!


...I will do what I can to make a formal stink about it.


I would never create a disturbance like this on the side of the road..that is one that I could never win.


Remember that if an officer is doing something that is illegal....making him/her lie about it later is considered a victory in my book. Is this really a problem for most of us here?

Jason

[anygunanywhere]

IF you have NOTHING to hide, what's the problem?

I have nothing to hide... anyone may come and search my vehicle at any time for I have nothing, no drugs, no illegal contraband--nothing, nada, zilch.

I could care less if they look.

Have you ever rented a car? How do you know whether anything is hidden in the rental? A friend was pulled over (Asian decent) by DPS. The company we work for allows us to rent cars when travelling to facilities within driving distance in liew of using privately owned vehicles. He was travelling on a high drug traffic interstate. The DPS tropper could not understand why he rented a car for a short distance. He was fishing. He asked for consent to search and my friend said he didn't care. The trooper let him leave. He was pulled over for 67 in a 65 zone.

I clued him in on his 4th amendment rights.

Not knocking the DPS. They are doing a tough job, but one must know ones rights.

Anygun

[nitrogen]

Now what a lot of officers will do is team up. One will ask you to step out of the car, and hope you leave your door open. His partner, while you aren't paying attention, will start to paw through your belongings.

and you base this opinion on what? LEO's cannot just "paw" through your belongings, and I know of none who do so illegally.

If he finds anything, he will either claim it's in plain sight.

Are you saying they will perform an illegal search and then lie about how they discovered it? And you didn't finish your sentence, "either claim its in plain site" or what?

It's not opinion, it's personal experience, although not in this state, it happened in Arizona. A DPS officer found a bottle at the bottom of a trashbag and asked me if I had been drinking alcohol. (I was speeding, and admitted it) I asked him how he found the bottle and he said it was in the cupholder, when it was not. It was an IBC Root Beer bottle that looked like a beer bottle.

Long story short, it was his word against mine, and my word was worth less when I brought the issue up to his superiors.

TXinvestigator, I can appreciate what LEO's do for us everyday, but they are not all honest, especially when they think they can get away with it with a 17 year old kid. Everyone thinks they are honest, but that doesn't mean everyone *IS* honest.

In some places, if you specifically don't tell an officer he doesn't have permission to search, he might search, and it might hold up

. In all places, he does not need permission if he has one of the other exceptions. If not, I don't know of any officer who is willing to risk federal civil rights charges, loss of job and perjury charges to illegally search your vehicle.

It happens daily. Just ask Dallas police Chief David Kunkle.
Some less-than-honest police officers will ruin it for the majority.

[jbirds1210]

KW5KW-

We will have to discuss it over a Coke someday.....You lost me in dialogue.

I am obviously not doing a good job relaying my feelings. I am not an "in your face" kind of person, but I do not believe that makes me one to have my rights trampled on either.

Anyway...take care of yourself and I hope that we get to shoot together sometime when I am in Ft. Worth. I plan to visit in November if all goes well and get back over the the Shooting Gallery!

Jason

[nitrogen]

"If you've got nothing hide, what's the problem?"

Law Enforcement has an extremely difficult job. Some cops like Txinvestigator take pride in their honesty and fairness. I feel those are in the majority.

You've also got some that feel they need to enforce the law "at any cost". Ever watch the Shield? Those cops are out there; I've met them.

In my previouis post, I talked about having an officer paw though my belongings in what I believed was an illegal search. I was speeding, sure, but had no alcohol on my breath, and passed a field sobriety test. An officer found a bottle that looked like a beer bottle and was ready to arrest me for an open container violation. When it became clear that the bottle never contained alcohol (it smelled like rootbeer) he backed off.

I was driving home, late at night from a rock concert when I was 17. I was a pretty good kid at 17, but, like other kids, I dressed like a rebellious kid. Long hair, ratty clothes, etc.
About halfway home, my friend and I got pulled over by a CHP officer. (I was living in california at the time) I was pretty sure I was doing the speed limit.
When I asked why I was pulled over, the officer said, "He'd be asking the questions, and to shut up."
He pulled both of us out of the car forcefully, and told us, "You kids can't be up to any good in mommy's car this late at night."
He then told us he smelled an odor of alcohol and marijuana in the vehicle and that he would search it. (This was Male Bovine Excrement as I have never smoked pot in my life, and neither of us were drinking)

The officer then tore my car apart. He tore my seats, tore the heading, soiled my interior with muddy footprints. He stole my friends' walkman.

When he found nothing, he was genuinely suprised. "I know you kids have something in this car, and you're getting away with it because I can't find it. It's not often that someone puts something over on me." and he let us go.

I could tell you more stories, but it really isn't necessary.
Unless an officer has some type of suspicion of some wrongdoing, I'm not going to give him a chance to find something in which to arrest me for.
Like I said, most cops are honest. I've had plenty of good experiences with law enforcement. My several bad experiences have permanantly soured me.

There ARE crooked cops, and I have met them. Not everyone that puts on a badge is a good person. That's why we have the rights we have, and that's why we should excersise them.
Rights, like muscles need excersise, otherwise they wither and die.

(off soapbox)

[jimlongley]

"If you've got nothing hide, what's the problem?"

While I would have nothing to hide, and have never really been the direct subject of any search, reasonable or unreasonable (ok there was that time on the New York Thruway with the 7 long guns in the back seat and the Trooper, but that was different and in 1966) I have watched aq couple of searches while I was doing ride alongs with the police in one place or another.

In the more memorable situation a young man was stopped for street racing and was noticed to have several cartons of cigarettes on the front seat of the car. As explained to me later by the officer, the fact that the cartons were not in a bag and were several different brands made him suspicious that they had been stolen, and the kid was under 18.

He received verbal permission from the (17 year old) driver to search the car and he did a thorough search, pulling out the back seat and emptying the contents of the glove box and console and then going through te trunk for good measure. Nothing was found, and the cop wasn't taking the kid's explanation that the cigs were for his mother, brother, and mother's boyfriend at face value, so he finally called the mother to find out if she knew her son was out street racing at that hour.

The mother was very upset - she had sent her son to get cigarettes for her, her boyfirend, and his (the kid's) brother more than an hour before and she wanted to know why he hadn't returned.

The store that sold the underage kid the cigs should have gotten a summons, in my opinion, and maybe mom for something (hey the kid wanted to make the run, he got to horse around in big brother's hot car) and the kid for his traffic violation, but what really bugged me about the whole thing was:

The cop made an absolute mess of the inside of the vehicle - nothing broken or torn, no actual damage, but items strewn all over - and he made absolutely no effort to clean up after himself.

Just for that reason alone I might deny a search - even though I have nothing to hide.

[skerbo]

"If you've got nothing hide, what's the problem?"

While I would have nothing to hide, and have never really been the direct subject of any search, reasonable or unreasonable (ok there was that time on the New York Thruway with the 7 long guns in the back seat and the Trooper, but that was different and in 1966) I have watched aq couple of searches while I was doing ride alongs with the police in one place or another.

In the more memorable situation a young man was stopped for street racing and was noticed to have several cartons of cigarettes on the front seat of the car. As explained to me later by the officer, the fact that the cartons were not in a bag and were several different brands made him suspicious that they had been stolen, and the kid was under 18.

He received verbal permission from the (17 year old) driver to search the car and he did a thorough search, pulling out the back seat and emptying the contents of the glove box and console and then going through te trunk for good measure. Nothing was found, and the cop wasn't taking the kid's explanation that the cigs were for his mother, brother, and mother's boyfriend at face value, so he finally called the mother to find out if she knew her son was out street racing at that hour.

The mother was very upset - she had sent her son to get cigarettes for her, her boyfirend, and his (the kid's) brother more than an hour before and she wanted to know why he hadn't returned.

The store that sold the underage kid the cigs should have gotten a summons, in my opinion, and maybe mom for something (hey the kid wanted to make the run, he got to horse around in big brother's hot car) and the kid for his traffic violation, but what really bugged me about the whole thing was:

The cop made an absolute mess of the inside of the vehicle - nothing broken or torn, no actual damage, but items strewn all over - and he made absolutely no effort to clean up after himself.

Just for that reason alone I might deny a search - even though I have nothing to hide.

Yeah, same thing happened to me. I was driving on I-10 towards Austin for the weekend. We were in my friend's VW bug and we had our bags in the back seat along with his climbing equipment (rock climber). I get stopped for rolling through a stop sign after getting gas, which I should admit was probably illegal, but at 2am who would have thought it would cause problems. Anyway, we consent to a search and the guy tears through our garment bags and climbing equipment and 15 minutes later gives me a warning for the stop sign and leaves us with 30 minutes of straightening up and repacking before we get back on the road. That kind of irritated me.

PS haha on the word filter for 'irritated' instead of what I originally posted.

[kauboy]

Something similar happened to a friend who got pulled over. He gave consent to a search (cuz he didn't know he had an option) and the officer proceded to tear into his stuff. He opened the trunk and pulled out my frineds luggage and opened it and threw clothes all over the place.
After not finding anything, the officer told him he had to pick it all up and quickly or he would be cited for littering.

Is there any kind of recourse for this behaviour? Do you have to have it on tape or anything? If so, I might start carrying a mini-cam.

[txinvestigator]

IF you have NOTHING to hide, what's the problem?

Ummm... maybe this:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I have nothing to hide... anyone may come and search my vehicle at any time for I have nothing, no drugs, no illegal contraband--nothing, nada, zilch.

I could care less if they look.

Some of us have an expectation of (if not an enumerated right to) privacy, and don't want strangers examining our belongings.

Could be that they have a reason to stop and search my vehicle. Could be that there is an "APB" or something (if they even still have "APB's") out for:

1) a vehicle fitting the description of my vehicle or
2) a description of a person fitting either me or my passenger(s) (assuming I'm driving.) or
3) I did something wrong (a traffic violation) and after questioning me, I give inconsistant answers to questions.

In that case, they should provide the reason and I would be willing to consider or allow it, depending on the specifics.

In any case, I don't drink and drive, heck I rarely drink at home! I don't do illegal drugs. I'm not a member of any gang. Heck, I just don't do illegal--speeding not included in above statement!

Why, as a law-abiding citizen, should I care if these law enforcement officers are doing their job as in 1, 2 or 3 above.

Things go south (IMHO) very quickly when the stopee gets beligerant and starts demanding that the LEO's stop and desist... why? Are they hiding something illegal? Are they a fugitive? Things like this start popping up in my head and I'm not even a lawyer or a LEO.

Just my opinion...
Russ

I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree. I can (and have) politely and courteously asked for reasons WHY they want to search. If it seems reasonable to me, I have allowed it. If it did not, I would decline permission. I would NOT expect that to stop them if they feel they have legitimate reason to search my vehicle, but refusal of permission cannot be construed as probable cause.

[txinvestigator]

"If you've got nothing hide, what's the problem?"

While I would have nothing to hide, and have never really been the direct subject of any search, reasonable or unreasonable (ok there was that time on the New York Thruway with the 7 long guns in the back seat and the Trooper, but that was different and in 1966) I have watched aq couple of searches while I was doing ride alongs with the police in one place or another.

In the more memorable situation a young man was stopped for street racing and was noticed to have several cartons of cigarettes on the front seat of the car. As explained to me later by the officer, the fact that the cartons were not in a bag and were several different brands made him suspicious that they had been stolen, and the kid was under 18.

He received verbal permission from the (17 year old) driver to search the car and he did a thorough search, pulling out the back seat and emptying the contents of the glove box and console and then going through te trunk for good measure. Nothing was found, and the cop wasn't taking the kid's explanation that the cigs were for his mother, brother, and mother's boyfriend at face value, so he finally called the mother to find out if she knew her son was out street racing at that hour.

The mother was very upset - she had sent her son to get cigarettes for her, her boyfirend, and his (the kid's) brother more than an hour before and she wanted to know why he hadn't returned.

The store that sold the underage kid the cigs should have gotten a summons, in my opinion, and maybe mom for something (hey the kid wanted to make the run, he got to horse around in big brother's hot car) and the kid for his traffic violation, but what really bugged me about the whole thing was:

The cop made an absolute mess of the inside of the vehicle - nothing broken or torn, no actual damage, but items strewn all over - and he made absolutely no effort to clean up after himself.

Just for that reason alone I might deny a search - even though I have nothing to hide.

Yeah, same thing happened to me. I was driving on I-10 towards Austin for the weekend. We were in my friend's VW bug and we had our bags in the back seat along with his climbing equipment (rock climber). I get stopped for rolling through a stop sign after getting gas, which I should admit was probably illegal, but at 2am who would have thought it would cause problems. Anyway, we consent to a search and the guy tears through our garment bags and climbing equipment and 15 minutes later gives me a warning for the stop sign and leaves us with 30 minutes of straightening up and repacking before we get back on the road. That kind of irritated me.

PS haha on the word filter for 'irritated' instead of what I originally posted.

Probably illegal? You took a driver's test right? WHen did time of day or your opinion of conditions become allowable to mitigate the law?

You consented to a search but were irritated that he did it?

[txinvestigator]

Something similar happened to a friend who got pulled over. He gave consent to a search (cuz he didn't know he had an option) and the officer proceded to tear into his stuff. He opened the trunk and pulled out my frineds luggage and opened it and threw clothes all over the place.
After not finding anything, the officer told him he had to pick it all up and quickly or he would be cited for littering.

Is there any kind of recourse for this behaviour? Do you have to have it on tape or anything? If so, I might start carrying a mini-cam.

Were you there?

[txinvestigator]

Not directed at anyone in particular, but in general, I am suspicious of folks who can cite numerous run-ins with the police where they did nothing wrong and the police were completely out of line.

That said, I digress. This thread was about the right a LEO has to search a vehicle. Asked and answered.

Lets all DRIVE SAFELY!

[kauboy]

I was not there. The story was relayed to me later.

[kw5kw]

IF you have NOTHING to hide, what's the problem?

I have nothing to hide... anyone may come and search my vehicle at any time for I have nothing, no drugs, no illegal contraband--nothing, nada, zilch.

I could care less if they look.

Have you ever rented a car? NEVER

Anygun

[kw5kw]

KW5KW-

We will have to discuss it over a Coke someday.....You lost me in dialogue.

I am obviously not doing a good job relaying my feelings. I am not an "in your face" kind of person, but I do not believe that makes me one to have my rights trampled on either.

Anyway...take care of yourself and I hope that we get to shoot together sometime when I am in Ft. Worth. I plan to visit in November if all goes well and get back over the the Shooting Gallery!

Lookin' forward to it!

Jason