Is this considered a "School" ?

[rdhetrick]

Quick and short question:

My daughter takes swimming lessons on Saturday mornings. The facility is called "Blah Blah Blah Swim School." For purposes of concealed carry, does this fall under the category of "Schools"? She also takes karate lessons and that place is called some sort of "Sports Center". The sports center has a gunbuster logo.

What do you think, is it legal to carry at these places or not? My thought is that it is okay to carry. While it might have the word "School" in the name, I don't think it falls under the school category in the laws. Maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks in advance!

[Keith B]

Quick and short question:

My daughter takes swimming lessons on Saturday mornings. The facility is called "Blah Blah Blah Swim School." For purposes of concealed carry, does this fall under the category of "Schools"? She also takes karate lessons and that place is called some sort of "Sports Center". The sports center has a gunbuster logo.

What do you think, is it legal to carry at these places or not? My thought is that it is okay to carry. While it might have the word "School" in the name, I don't think it falls under the school category in the laws. Maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks in advance!

I am not a lawyer, but general consensus is no. I hold to the rule that unless it is a public or privet learning institution accredited by the Texas Education Agency or the agency that accredits private schools recognized by the state, then it is NOT a school per the intent of the statute.

[dcphoto]

According to 20 USCS § 1681 educational institution means “any public or private preschool, elementary, or secondary school, or any institution of vocational, professional, or higher education, except that in the case of an educational institution composed of more than one school, college, or department which are administratively separate units, such term means each such school, college, or department.”

IANAL!!! The word "school" is just another term for educational institution, so the above definition should apply to that word as well. As far as I know (remember, IANAL) those terms aren't defined differently by Texas. So, it would seem that carrying there is ok. I would be wary of carrying into a private daycare though since they usually offer preschool classes, and are probably accredited.

[Estand]

According to 20 USCS § 1681 educational institution means “any public or private preschool, elementary, or secondary school, or any institution of vocational, professional, or higher education, except that in the case of an educational institution composed of more than one school, college, or department which are administratively separate units, such term means each such school, college, or department.”

I would like to know the final word on this too. Imagine my kid is at Karate instruction place of business, or I visit a mechanics or cooking school (with no 30.06 posted). These are Vocational or Professional "schools" regardless if it is for adults or kids. If the business name has the word "school" in it should not affect anything it seams of course. Would like to hear from someone that know for sure.

[srothstein]

I am unable to answer this definitively and no one will be able to until there is a court case on this or the legislature changes the definition. As of right now, the Code Construction Act (Government Code chapter 311) applies and says this:

Sec. 311.011. COMMON AND TECHNICAL USAGE OF WORDS. (a) Words and phrases shall be read in context and construed according to the rules of grammar and common usage.

(b) Words and phrases that have acquired a technical or particular meaning, whether by legislative definition or otherwise, shall be construed accordingly.


The problem, as I see it, is that the common usage of the word school has too many meanings. When I talk about school, I am generally thinking of Kindergarten through 12th grade. But I do refer to my college classes as school also. And I have used the term to refer to police training classes, such as going to fingerprint school. The use of the word in so many names indicates that the common definition might be broader than what I normally think of as school. But, the fact that so many of us do think like I do also indicates that the term was only mean to include primary and secondary schools.

We are now left with the same problem here as we have with the exceptions. I think both "traveling" and "school" are facts to be determined at trial by the jury. Sometimes, you just pay your money and take your chances.

[chabouk]

Overlooking the obvious goal (that the Legislature eliminate any/all ban on school carry), I would have them define "school" as public K-12. They have no more business banning carry at private schools than at private churches and private hospitals. (Or private 51% establishments, which should also be fixed.)

[texas1234]

The first thing I do before I carry into an establishment is think to myself. Do deranged liberal nut case politicians have the ability to affect public policy that would throw a law abiding licensed citizen in jail for carrying a firearm into this establishment? If my answer is yes; I dont carry.

Now its not 100% but its the first thing I decide before looking for signs (i.e. 30.06) and/or going mentally through the list of places I know for a fact it would be illegal to carry.

A private business that offers swim lessons is not registering high on the deranged liberal nut case politician meter.

[DaMonsta]

Is it a Swim School? I think we need more information for an accurate answer.

If it's a swim school I wouldn't call it a "school" but could be.

IANAL

[C-dub]

A private business that offers swim lessons is not registering high on the deranged liberal nut case politician meter.

Yes, but a private K-8 school is still a school.

Is the pool owned by the city or county?

I have another "is it a school" place. What about State Schools like the Denton State School in Denton, TX? http://www.dentonstateschool.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If it is not a school can it be legally posted with a 30.06 sign? My BIL is autistic and lives in a state school. I pick him up and bring him home for holidays and things and always go armed since receiving my CHL. I don't think it is a "school" and have not seen any 30.06 sign. I don't want to ask because I don't want to be given verbal notice.

[srothstein]

C-dub

I have to warn you of one potential problem that you might not be aware of. The State School system MAY be licensed nursing homes. I think they are licensed under chapter 242 of the Health and Safety code, but I cannot verify it quickly right now.

If they are, you get the one time I think government property can be posted with 30.06 signs you must obey. The point has been talked about before and the law may not apply since the notice might not be valid, but I still think you would get arrested if caught carrying there if it is licensed. That would be a mean trick if the school label is wrong but the hospital label gets you.

Obviously, I don't know if they are posted properly, which would be the first requirement. And I cannot verify that they are licensed nursing homes, though they do meet the legal requirement for it. So, this is just a heads up that might need checking into further.

[C-dub]

C-dub

I have to warn you of one potential problem that you might not be aware of. The State School system MAY be licensed nursing homes. I think they are licensed under chapter 242 of the Health and Safety code, but I cannot verify it quickly right now.

If they are, you get the one time I think government property can be posted with 30.06 signs you must obey. The point has been talked about before and the law may not apply since the notice might not be valid, but I still think you would get arrested if caught carrying there if it is licensed. That would be a mean trick if the school label is wrong but the hospital label gets you.

Obviously, I don't know if they are posted properly, which would be the first requirement. And I cannot verify that they are licensed nursing homes, though they do meet the legal requirement for it. So, this is just a heads up that might need checking into further.

That is an excellent point. I hadn't considered this angle. I will also look into this. I have never seen a sign where my BIL is at and I don't intend on asking them any questions that would make them aware of their situation.

Some of these men are very strong, but have no idea of that strength. Before CHL there were a few times when it got a little tense when one would get a little preoccupied with my wife as we were coming and going. Things can happen so fast in a situation like that. Since then my BIL has been moved to a less violent area and we haven't had as many problems. The others are still on campus, just in different buildings.