51 Rule Question

[mabco66]

Hello everyone. I am new to this forum (my first post) and I am presently in the waiting room (processing application) since 1/19. Last night I met a friend for dinner at a local sports bar & GRILL. I do not go out to "bars" very much anymore and especially lately. However, I did not notice the 51 placard or the penal code posted ANYWHERE in the bar or at the front door. So, being new to the chl, I asked the owner if his sales of alcohol were 51% or more. He told me that although they have an extensive food menu, alcohol sales are 80%+. He also told me that he did at one time have the 51 placard posted by the bar but not anymore. He does not know what happened to it . My question is...is it legal to carry concealed? If not, is it my responsibility to ask the personel their %? It is my understanding that it must be posted. However, is my ignorance a defense? P.S. I was not drinking alcohol. Thanx....Mike

[Kythas]

A business that makes 51% or more of their money from on premises alcohol consumption is off limits, whether they post the 51% sign or not. Even if they post the wrong sign, and are a 51% business, it's still illegal to carry. It's your responsibility to know and not the business' responsibility to post the appropriate sign. Stupid, I know, but that's the way it is.

One way you can find out is to ask to see their liquor license which should be posted. If the license says "Sign=red" it's off limits. If the license says "Sign=blue" then carry away.

You should notify the TABC and let them know this bar is not posting the proper sign. They'll visit and get them to post whichever sign is appropriate.

[joe817]

Hi mabco66, welcome to the forum! Glad to have you with us!

Kythas said it better than I could, and he gave absolutely good info to you. It's YOUR responsibility to determine if conceal carry is prohibited or allowed anywhere you go...not only bars.

There is a wealth of information here at your fingertips and a wonderful group of guys and gals to get to know.

[ralewis]

Another option is to look at the Liquor license. If it says "SIGN = BLUE" you are good and they should be posting the "Unlicensed Possession" sign. If it says "SIGN = RED" they should be posting the 51% sign. There is a place in Cedar Park that posted both types of signs, and I inquired with TABC. They said they'd look into it (and did and ultimately the 51% sign came down), but the guy told me to just look at the License if ever unsure about a sign posting.

So, this brings us to another question.... If a place has a "BLUE" sign and license, and in fact is really selling >50% in alc sales, to me that means they have the wrong license right? It would surprise me if we as CHL holders are required any due diligence other than what the Liquor license on display actually says when there is a question about a sign posting. Certainly could be wrong about that however.....

[Charles L. Cotton]

As of Sept. 1, 2009, the lack of a 51% sign is a defense to prosecution. Be careful, you can still be arrested but you will/should win your case.

If you are unsure and want to know if a business is a 51% location, just look at their liquor license and see if it says "sign = red" or "sign = blue." If it's blue, you're fine; if it's red it's a 51% location.

Welcome to the forum.

Chas.

[ralewis]

A business that makes 51% or more of their money from on premises alcohol consumption is off limits, whether they post the 51% sign or not. Even if they post the wrong sign, and are a 51% business, it's still illegal to carry. It's your responsibility to know and not the business' responsibility to post the appropriate sign. Stupid, I know, but that's the way it is.

One way you can find out is to ask to see their liquor license which should be posted. If the license says "Sign=red" it's off limits. If the license says "Sign=blue" then carry away.

You should notify the TABC and let them know this bar is not posting the proper sign. They'll visit and get them to post whichever sign is appropriate.

Apologies to Kythas.....I didn't see your post before I posted about the same thing. Only red the first point before responding.

[The Annoyed Man]

As of Sept. 1, 2009, the lack of a 51% sign is a defense to prosecution. Be careful, you can still be arrested but you will/should win your case.

Didn't the 9/1/09 change include a requirement that the sign also be prominently posted? I seem to remember something about that.

[Medic218]

If you are unsure and want to know if a business is a 51% location, just look at their liquor license and see if it says "sign = red" or "sign = blue." If it's blue, you're fine; if it's red it's a 51% location.

I've never seen a TABC liquor licence(never had a need) so I'm unsure what this whole "sign = red" or "sign = blue" stuff is all about. I did a google image search and that turned up no results. Does anyone have a picture of a sample licence so I can see what in the world yall are talkin about?
Thanks in advance!!

[Keith B]

If you are unsure and want to know if a business is a 51% location, just look at their liquor license and see if it says "sign = red" or "sign = blue." If it's blue, you're fine; if it's red it's a 51% location.

I've never seen a TABC liquor licence(never had a need) so I'm unsure what this whole "sign = red" or "sign = blue" stuff is all about. I did a google image search and that turned up no results. Does anyone have a picture of a sample licence so I can see what in the world yall are talkin about?
Thanks in advance!!

If you look on the license, which should be posted somewhere close to the bar, it will actually say Sign = Red or Sign = Blue. Blue means the location does not get more than 50% of their income from liquor sales, they are to post a unlicensed carry sign (the blue ones you see at the quick stops, grocery stores and restaurants) and it is OK to carry unless posted with a 30.06 sign. Sign = Red means they are a 51% location and are off-limits to concealed carry. The Sign = Red means they are supposed to post a 51% sign.

[Medic218]

Yeah, i gathered what the colors meant. I just wasnt sure if the descriptions were as literal as the turned out to be. I thought maybe it could have even been something along the lines of "SIGN" or "SIGN"
Thanks for the clarification bud!

[JJVP]

A business that makes 51% or more of their money from on premises alcohol consumption is off limits, whether they post the 51% sign or not. Even if they post the wrong sign, and are a 51% business, it's still illegal to carry. It's your responsibility to know and not the business' responsibility to post the appropriate sign. Stupid, I know, but that's the way it is.

No. It is the responsibility of the business to properly post the 51% sign.

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage
Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business
premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code,
or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety
Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or
nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements
of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign
include on its face the number '51 ' .
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give
notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person
licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises.
The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least
one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed
in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in
a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

Please see the use of the word "shall". That means it is NOT OPTIONAL. In addition:

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority
of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of
whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's
person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued
under Chapter 25,28,32,69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if
the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or
service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined
by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section
104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
.
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the
actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government
Code.

[srothstein]

So, this brings us to another question.... If a place has a "BLUE" sign and license, and in fact is really selling >50% in alc sales, to me that means they have the wrong license right? It would surprise me if we as CHL holders are required any due diligence other than what the Liquor license on display actually says when there is a question about a sign posting. Certainly could be wrong about that however.....

No, a person with a CHL has no obligation behind finding out what is typed on the license. The secret is that the amount of money the business makes from alcohol sales is actually irrelevant to whether or not you can carry. The posting of the sign is also irrelevant as most of you already know.

The law says the place is off limits if they make more than 51% of their income from sales of alcoholic beverages for on premise consumption AS DETERMINED BY TABC. Most of the time we forget about the last part, but it can be critical. If you look at the license and it says "SIGN=BLUE" it doesn't matter if they get every cent of their income from sales of glasses of whiskey. TABC has determined, in its infinite wisdom, that they do not meet the 51% rule. The reverse is also true. If they only sell bottles of sealed alcohol and do not let you open the bottle in the store, if the license says the sign is red then the place is off limits to a CHL.

I was going to point this out as a technical correction to an earlier post, but your question actually justifies it and shows why we all need to know and read the exact law, not just the shorthand we all use when we discuss things like this.

[JJVP]

If they only sell bottles of sealed alcohol and do not let you open the bottle in the store, if the license says the sign is red then the place is off limits to a CHL.

If they have the Red sign, they have the wrong sign,

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06,

[Keith B]

If they only sell bottles of sealed alcohol and do not let you open the bottle in the store, if the license says the sign is red then the place is off limits to a CHL.

If they have the Red sign, they have the wrong sign,

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06,

Not necessarily. They may be licensed for on-premise and a 51% location, but that doesn't mean they can't decide to only sell for out the door and not allow folks to consume on premise, even though they could drink it there legally.

[srothstein]

If they only sell bottles of sealed alcohol and do not let you open the bottle in the store, if the license says the sign is red then the place is off limits to a CHL.

If they have the Red sign, they have the wrong sign,

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06,

The large bold red print is the critical section. If the license says the sign is red, then the determination by TABC was that they do meet the 51% rule, regardless of what they actually do. This was the whole point of my post.