Martial Arts As Deadly Force vs. CHL??

[LongHairedRedneck]

This may have been covered by someone in a earlier thread. If so can you please link up the topic.

According to the State of Texas if a person is at or above a third degree blackbelt in martial arts their hands/feet are considered deadly weapons. One of my Ex-GF's was a fourth degree in Tae Kwon Doe and before she defended herself she was lawfully required to state the fact that she was well trained in Martial Arts and also that her hands/feet were considered deadly weapons before any action was taken. She was all of 5'3" about 110lbs and while taking set breaks from the band at some pretty shady dives I've seen her defend against guys my size(6'3" 220lbs) and bigger with the BG's going away in ambulances minus a few teeth and or broken limbs.

So here is my question: BG springs ninja like from some un-suspecting location and threatens to use martial arts on you or proceeds to use them(in this case if they know what they're doing you are lights out). Do you assume that they are well trained and then have to consider/treat them as presenting/threating deadly force? Since they are a BG they usually do not obey any laws and probably not going to advise you on whether their hands/feet are deadly weapons according to the state.

Always have thought about what would be the correct action in this scenario, just wanted to see what everyones take on this is.

[threoh8]

According to the State of Texas if a person is at or above a third degree blackbelt in martial arts their hands/feet are considered deadly weapons.

Chapter and verse?

[Beiruty]

The law requires that you have reasonably fear of deadly or grave bodily harm being inflicted on you to be justified in use of deadly force. Disparity of force (Master in Martial Arts against your retired Joe).

[gregthehand]

This may have been covered by someone in a earlier thread. If so can you please link up the topic.

According to the State of Texas if a person is at or above a third degree blackbelt in martial arts their hands/feet are considered deadly weapons. One of my Ex-GF's was a fourth degree in Tae Kwon Doe and before she defended herself she was lawfully required to state the fact that she was well trained in Martial Arts and also that her hands/feet were considered deadly weapons before any action was taken. She was all of 5'3" about 110lbs and while taking set breaks from the band at some pretty shady dives I've seen her defend against guys my size(6'3" 220lbs) and bigger with the BG's going away in ambulances minus a few teeth and or broken limbs.

So here is my question: BG springs ninja like from some un-suspecting location and threatens to use martial arts on you or proceeds to use them(in this case if they know what they're doing you are lights out). Do you assume that they are well trained and then have to consider/treat them as presenting/threating deadly force? Since they are a BG they usually do not obey any laws and probably not going to advise you on whether their hands/feet are deadly weapons according to the state.

Always have thought about what would be the correct action in this scenario, just wanted to see what everyones take on this is.

OK I don't think I've ever said this but are you serious? I'm sorry but your first statement about the whole hands and feet as deadly weapons is just pure urban myth. The rest of it seems just as silly. I'll hold back further comment as I just don't think I have anything productive to say.

[gigag04]

According to the State of Texas if a person is at or above a third degree blackbelt in martial arts their hands/feet are considered deadly weapons.

Chapter and verse?

It's up there with hanging people for cattle rustlin'


In all seriousness there is a whole lot of misinformation in your post. Some of our trainers at work are very highly classified (as in degrees of black belts, not as in secret) martial arts instructors - there is not such requirement to "announce your hands and feet are deadly weapons." That may be some discipline specific courtesy, but not a Texas law.

Also, just because someone knows how to kill someone with bare hands does not mean that is an automatic event upon contact with the ninja. Martial Arts practitioners are held to the same use of force statutes as a 400lb couch potato - the Texas PC (which I have read multiple times, cover to cover, word for word if you are curious how I know).

If you try and fight me with your hands, or pull me, I can execute a number of stuns and strikes that will not hurt you long term, but will have a desired outcome of changing your mind about contacting me. And my skills are basic, basic, basic, when it comes to HTH. Capable, but basic.

[LongHairedRedneck]

Guess I just made a fool of myself.......

[Dragonfighter]

My first CHL instructor (and friend) has been in martial arts competitions for years. I cannot recite the actual belt level but he was black belt. Anyway he described the scenario in class after rattling off an impressive list of martial arts credentials. He said if a pimply faced skinny teenager jumped out and took a stance, the gun was coming out. His logic, there is always someone better and you don't know who that is until your laying on the mat.

The deadly weapons nonsense is just that, I think Don Knotts used it in "The Ghost and Mister Chicken".

Added in Edit:

Guess I just made a fool of myself.......

Don't sweat it, after all I am one of the most skeptical people I know and I have on occasion forwarded Snopes worthy fare.

[RPB]

Guess I just made a fool of myself.......

Nah, I used to have a girlfriend who placed second in Texas in Tae Kwon Doe competition (She was originally trained by an Olympic competitor, then I taught her more) ... I always warned her anyway before sparring "My feet are deadly ... just smell them"

If someone jumps out to attack me saying "I know Karate ... blah blah blah" I say "I know arregato, Anime, Sushi and a few other words ..."

Of course if they say "I know Tae Kwon Doe" I ask if they know where I can get good Kim-Chee.

(The only belt I have is a Comp-Tac kydex reinforced Contoured Gun belt with velcro, it's black, but havent taken its temperature....
Before the "second place Tae Kwon Doe girlfreind," I had a Korean Fiancee for more years than I can count on my fingers, and her dad learned Tae Kwon Doe in Korea in the South Korean Army during WW2 and the Korean "conflict" , and brother learned from her dad, and in school in Korea. We all had only some Black Sunday Church dress belts and some Brown Western belts we got at a flea market ... One had my name stamped on the back.
"Mom" used to get mad at us leaving barefooted footprints on the ceiling )
----------------------

Here is a section of the Penal Code you might print out
CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... m/PE.9.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the situation you asked about, I'd defend myself from an attack with the appropriate amount of force necessitated for that particular situation as I perceived it at the time under the law. Which in some situations may ONLY be the following conversation
Them: "I know karate and I'm fast"
Me : "Faster than a speeding bullet?" (Not even a threat of force, just a question)
If he doesn't catch the hint, then I might use a threat
Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE


Really, first I'd try to de-escalate the situation, and only use what force is necessary, if he demands it.


Second part of your scenario .... someone jumps out and starts assaulting me ... I'm older, have arthritis, knee problems, back isn't as good as it used to be .... I"m in fear of serious bodily harm and getting pummled ....

I'd call a time out, run to the library and look up ... http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... m/PE.9.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE.
AND
Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON

Not saying that sarcastically, nor sardonically, I personally review it often, because as I age, my forgetter works better than my rememberer

[shootthesheet]

People that don't know and don't look for the answers should be corrected. Those that don't know and look for the answers should be praised.

LongHairedRedneck, I hope you find exactly what you are looking to know. Just try to understand most of us hear things like this so much it is hard not to get a bit down that so many people are deceived so often. It is good that you are doing what it takes and not just believing everything someone tell you

[chabouk]

I think Longhairedredneck already understands he was falling for some urban myth, but let's look at the logic involved: "a person is at or above a third degree blackbelt in martial arts".

First: what's a martial art? Competitive shooting is a martial art. No belts there. Fencing is a martial art; again, no belts. Even some of the "traditional" Asian systems don't award belts, or are so stingy with them that the first black belt is a true symbol of accomplishment. Some of what is traditionally called "martial arts", i.e., Eastern fighting styles, have devolved into mere sports. Tae Kwon Do is a sport, and there are so many "belt farm" schools out there that I wouldn't be surprised to find some pre-teens who've reached third degree black belt.

Having been active in Tae Kwon Do in my "yute", I have to say I'd rather go hand-to-hand with a 3rd Dan TKD, than a mixed martial arts fighter who's never had a belt of any kind.

[srothstein]

Longhairedredneck, asking an honest question while trying to educate yourself is never making a fool out of yourself. And urban myths would not perpetuate if people did not believe in them, so I would not consider that foolish either.

As I understand your question, the basic premise is "when can I consider a person attacking me with personal weapons (hands, feet, teeth, etc. are classified by the police as personal weapons) a threat enough to justify deadly force?" There are two parts to answer. The first is to remember that deadly force is anything that can cause serious bodily injury or death. So, deadly force does not have to be truly deadly. Can a person attack you and cause serious bodily injury? That is the first part of the answer, as well as the main part.

The second part of the question is if I have to consider his actions by taking a martial arts stance, even if I do not know his true competence level. This really depends on what is reasonable at the time. Would the average person seeing him take the stance in the specific situation like your incident believe he knew what he was doing? I have a rule of trying to never call people's bluff. If someone says he wants to fight me, I am going to assume he will. If someone takes a karate stance, I assume he knows karate. Instead of asking if I have a reason to believe him, I ask if I have a reason to not believe him. I think this would work as a guideline for you.

Of course, I supported Bush because Saddam claimed he had weapons of mass destruction. This logic did not work too well for Bush with most people.

[A-R]

(The only belt I have is a Comp-Tac kydex reinforced Contoured Gun belt with velcro, it's black, but havent taken its temperature....

And to the OP, don't sweat it. We all get duped some times. For instance, has anyone every actually seen a person who has BOTH long hair and a red neck? Seems to be mutually exclusive character traits to me

[karder]

First: what's a martial art? Competitive shooting is a martial art. No belts there. Fencing is a martial art; again, no belts. Even some of the "traditional" Asian systems don't award belts, or are so stingy with them that the first black belt is a true symbol of accomplishment. Some of what is traditionally called "martial arts", i.e., Eastern fighting styles, have devolved into mere sports. Tae Kwon Do is a sport, and there are so many "belt farm" schools out there that I wouldn't be surprised to find some pre-teens who've reached third degree black belt.

Having been active in Tae Kwon Do in my "yute", I have to say I'd rather go hand-to-hand with a 3rd Dan TKD, than a mixed martial arts fighter who's never had a belt of any kind.

I have studied a few of the Japanese based Martial Arts for many years and I would hardly consider myself a greater threat than a good boxer or wrestler or even just a really big strong guy. If someone is really a black belt, they should be accredited by an internationally recognized organization as such, and should have the paperwork to prove it. There are tons of schools which are run by self proclaimed experts who hand out belts like tic tacs. These people are not officially ranked anywhere outside their school. If you don't have legitimate credentials besides a $10 black belt that anyone can buy at any martial arts supply store, you are not a black belt. Beyond that, I know a lot of very high ranking black belts who have studied their arts for many years, and know the technique backward and forward, but couldn't fight their way out of a coat closet. I have known only a tiny fraction of practitioners who I would actually consider serious fighters. I greatly respect the martial arts and believe that there is great value in serious study, but all the "human weapon" stuff the greatly over blown.

[LarryH]

For instance, has anyone every actually seen a person who has BOTH long hair and a red neck? Seems to be mutually exclusive character traits to me

Charlie Daniels?

Ted Nugent?