CHL Instructor says State Fair is an amusement park...

[Liberty]

Obviously you have been fully indoctrinated.

Obviously somebody is paranoid. Just don't go dude. You don't have some unwritten right to go there.

No, as a matter of fact, I want you to go. And, I want you to outright refuse the search if they pick you. Make a big deal out of it and try to make them feel like they're trampling on your rights. I'm curious to know what will happen. You might even make the news. Hey, you should go to the airport and refuse to let them look through your carry-on baggage too. Then demand your rights. I mean come on, its your stuff, and you're not a terrorist, right?

Ok, I'm half kidding, but honestly what are your choices???

BINGO!!! DON'T GO!, ALLOW THE SEARCH, or your personal favorite, STAND YOUR GROUND AND FIGHT "THE SYSTEM" THAT'S OUT TO GET YOU.

Oh, and don't forget that tin-foil. You might need to make an impromptu hat.

EDIT: Just saw your post TX. Thanks. I was starting to think no one else would stand up.

I grew up in a time of less fear and more freedom. A time when a plane trip was a pleasant experiance and personal searches were only done on real criminals. It used to be that the police would knock on the door to deliver a warrant. Thought of police at our schools was unknown. I remember reading a book a book called 1984 and snickering at the thought that cameras will be watching us everywhere.

Times have changed. I have seen many of our freedoms fade. There are good reasons for some of this "extra security" that we live under today, but it is depressing, and some of us can't bare to submit unless we absolutley have to. Yeah, they search my car when I must gone into a chemical plant, and I wince and bare it when airline security pats me down because I must make a trip in a certain time.

Sometimes I must fly. Sometimes I must submit to embarrrasing searches. I don't have to like it. And I will not submit to these things as part of an entertainment package. It is not that there aren't good reasons for this loss of privacy, but its really painful for some of us who remember real freedom. Today I am reading about calls to lockout our schools and having all our children go through metal detectors. Its enough to make a grown man cry.

[Renegade]

YOUR NOT GIVING UP YOUR RIGHTS!!!

Its your choice whether or not you wish to visit that place. You are not being forced to do anything. If you don't want you vehicle searched, DON'T GO. It is completely voluntary. There is absolutely no basis for believing that your constitutional rights have been violated. The Patriot Act has nothing to do with the searches. Its all about the owner's ability to provide for a safe environment for their patrons. And they have every right to search your vehicle if you are going to use their business' facilities. Call it a trade, if you will. They are under no obligation to let you in if you don't want a search. Its their business. They can set any rules they like.

Obviously you have been fully indoctrinated.

Its not indoctrination, its the truth. Whether you and I like it or not.

No it is not the truth, in fact it is far from it. For example, his last sentence "They can set any rules they like" is 100% patently NOT true. They cannot set "any" rules they like. If anyone thinks this is so, they are severely misinformed. For example, they cannot have a rule stating CHLs can not enter, They cannot have a rule stating black people cannot enter, They cannot set a rule making the drinking age 15. They are under very tight Federal and Stae laws under which they can set rules.

[Renegade]

Obviously you have been fully indoctrinated.

Obviously somebody is paranoid. Just don't go dude. You don't have some unwritten right to go there.

No, as a matter of fact, I want you to go. And, I want you to outright refuse the search if they pick you. Make a big deal out of it and try to make them feel like they're trampling on your rights. I'm curious to know what will happen. You might even make the news. Hey, you should go to the airport and refuse to let them look through your carry-on baggage too. Then demand your rights. I mean come on, its your stuff, and you're not a terrorist, right?

Ok, I'm half kidding, but honestly what are your choices???

BINGO!!! DON'T GO!, ALLOW THE SEARCH, or your personal favorite, STAND YOUR GROUND AND FIGHT "THE SYSTEM" THAT'S OUT TO GET YOU.

Oh, and don't forget that tin-foil. You might need to make an impromptu hat.

EDIT: Just saw your post TX. Thanks. I was starting to think no one else would stand up.

No I am not paranoid, I am just stating facts, which seem to be lacking in the thread. If you have to give up constitutional rights to gain admission to the park, then you have given up constitutional rights to gain admission to the park, just like he said. Duh.

Nobody said it was illegal or unconstitutional; that is where you jumped off the deep-end with phrases like "tin-foil hats", "paranoid", "standing your ground", "airports" and a host of other nonsense nobody stated or claimed.

[Renegade]

Are you an instructor?

Not anymore, I was in the first class back in 95, but have since given it up. Now I just make sure to read the book and pay attention to any changes in the law.

I find it always healthy to engage in lively debate like in this thread, and to post my views because if I am wrong someone will point it out for me, and then I will be better informed after that. (i) has caught a lot of people over the years.

[Renegade]

Obviously you have been fully indoctrinated.

Obviously somebody is paranoid. Just don't go dude. You don't have some unwritten right to go there.

No, as a matter of fact, I want you to go. And, I want you to outright refuse the search if they pick you. Make a big deal out of it and try to make them feel like they're trampling on your rights. I'm curious to know what will happen. You might even make the news. Hey, you should go to the airport and refuse to let them look through your carry-on baggage too. Then demand your rights. I mean come on, its your stuff, and you're not a terrorist, right?

Ok, I'm half kidding, but honestly what are your choices???

BINGO!!! DON'T GO!, ALLOW THE SEARCH, or your personal favorite, STAND YOUR GROUND AND FIGHT "THE SYSTEM" THAT'S OUT TO GET YOU.

Oh, and don't forget that tin-foil. You might need to make an impromptu hat.

EDIT: Just saw your post TX. Thanks. I was starting to think no one else would stand up.

I grew up in a time of less fear and more freedom. A time when a plane trip was a pleasant experiance and personal searches were only done on real criminals. It used to be that the police would knock on the door to deliver a warrant. Thought of police at our schools was unknown. I remember reading a book a book called 1984 and snickering at the thought that cameras will be watching us everywhere.

Times have changed. I have seen many of our freedoms fade. There are good reasons for some of this "extra security" that we live under today, but it is depressing, and some of us can't bare to submit unless we absolutley have to. Yeah, they search my car when I must gone into a chemical plant, and I wince and bare it when airline security pats me down because I must make a trip in a certain time.

Sometimes I must fly. Sometimes I must submit to embarrrasing searches. I don't have to like it. And I will not submit to these things as part of an entertainment package. It is not that there aren't good reasons for this loss of privacy, but its really painful for some of us who remember real freedom. Today I am reading about calls to lockout our schools and having all our children go through metal detectors. Its enough to make a grown man cry.

Right on, I feel for the current generation that will never know what freedom is, but I feel even more for those poor souls who have been brain-washed into thinking they should not try to get it back, and should defend the status quo.

[wrt45]

YOUR NOT GIVING UP YOUR RIGHTS!!!

Its all about the owner's ability to provide for a safe environment for their patrons. And they have every right to search your vehicle if you are going to use their business' facilities. Call it a trade, if you will. They are under no obligation to let you in if you don't want a search. Its their business. They can set any rules they like.

This would be clear cut, and I would agree fully with this, but for one thing. Aren't we talking about the STATE Fair, not a privately owned business.

The same arguments I hear in this thread defending searches could applied easily to other state and civic events. Cities were using these same sorts of arguments, prior to SB501, to justify posting 30.06 signs on city property.

Why must I give up my basic rights in order to participate in something my government sponsors?

Now, if the state fair is privately operated I'd feel differently. I have no real knowledge of the fair, just assumptions since it is called "State Fair."

[KRM45]

I just came back from the State Fair. They made me wait about 15 minutes until somebody came to check my DL and CHL. They wrote down my info and let us in.

I was thinking it was bothersome that they made me wait, and that they wrote my info down. Then I thought about the fact that all the info on my DL is public information anyway...

I just wonder what list I'll be put on.

[kauboy]

No it is not the truth, in fact it is far from it. For example, his last sentence "They can set any rules they like" is 100% patently NOT true. They cannot set "any" rules they like. If anyone thinks this is so, they are severely misinformed. For example, they cannot have a rule stating CHLs can not enter, They cannot have a rule stating black people cannot enter, They cannot set a rule making the drinking age 15. They are under very tight Federal and Stae laws under which they can set rules.

Yes, it is the truth. Any business can create any RULE they wish. But, no RULE can negate or overstep a LAW. Its very simple. If the law states it, they have to abide. If it doesn't, its fair game. There's your truth.

No I am not paranoid, I am just stating facts, which seem to be lacking in the thread. If you have to give up constitutional rights to gain admission to the park, then you have given up constitutional rights to gain admission to the park, just like he said. Duh.

You are not giving up ANY Constitutional Rights. the Constitution guarantees you the protection from "unwarrented search and seizure". That means, you CANNOT be forced to allow a warrantless search(unless prob cause, blah blah). Well, if you have an option to avoid the search, then your rights have not been violated. You have excersized them by not going.

Nobody said it was illegal or unconstitutional; that is where you jumped off the deep-end with phrases like "tin-foil hats", "paranoid", "standing your ground", "airports" and a host of other nonsense nobody stated or claimed.

I'll point you to hirundo82's post:

Easy--it's all in the name of homeland security. Where's your sense of patriotism? If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to be afraid of. What's wrong with giving up a few constitutional rights for a sense [abbreviated profanity deleted] false security?

He claimed that we are having to give up our rights to go to the fair. Thats just not true. Keep your rights, and don't go.

Like it or leave it, thats the way it is.

[Renegade]

No it is not the truth, in fact it is far from it. For example, his last sentence "They can set any rules they like" is 100% patently NOT true. They cannot set "any" rules they like. If anyone thinks this is so, they are severely misinformed. For example, they cannot have a rule stating CHLs can not enter, They cannot have a rule stating black people cannot enter, They cannot set a rule making the drinking age 15. They are under very tight Federal and Stae laws under which they can set rules.

Yes, it is the truth. Any business can create any RULE they wish. But, no RULE can negate or overstep a LAW. Its very simple. If the law states it, they have to abide. If it doesn't, its fair game. There's your truth.

Yeah, that is what I wrote. Glad to see you have learned from your errors and now agree with it.

[wrt45]

Well, if you have an option to avoid the search, then your rights have not been violated. You have excersized them by not going.

AND

Keep your rights, and don't go.

This is the argument that really scares me. "Avoid the serach...just don't go...." If we accept this thinking for something like a civic event (State Fair) how much of a stretch is it to apply this to your use of a state park? After all, your rights aren't being violated if we decide to search everyone in a state park.....you can just stay home and be free of the warrant-less search. What about the city park here in my community. The city sponsors many events here for the community. Should I surrender my rights so I can participate?

What about public streets next? Just stay home, and we won't search you, but if you choose to venture out you have consented to the search.....

I can't see where you draw the line once you begin to move in this direction.

[vide0chik]

I just came back from the State Fair.

I did too, I only had to wait 5 minutes for the guy on the moped to drive up. I asked him nicely just out of curiosity, what the list was for - he said the DPD just wanted a list of everyone who had CHLs that were in there. He didn't say why they wanted them. He took down my info, and told me to have a nice day.

[Kalrog]

DPD is not entitled to that information.

[txinvestigator]

DPD is not entitled to that information.

Oh great. I'll just tell them to screw off, and I'll march my happy rear end right on in.

[kauboy]

This is the argument that really scares me. "Avoid the serach...just don't go...." If we accept this thinking for something like a civic event (State Fair) how much of a stretch is it to apply this to your use of a state park? After all, your rights aren't being violated if we decide to search everyone in a state park.....you can just stay home and be free of the warrant-less search. What about the city park here in my community. The city sponsors many events here for the community. Should I surrender my rights so I can participate?

What about public streets next? Just stay home, and we won't search you, but if you choose to venture out you have consented to the search.....

I can't see where you draw the line once you begin to move in this direction.

I draw the line at a government deciding its their place to conduct these searches. If you would do a little research you would no doubt find this and this. They both plainly state that the "State Fair of Texas" is owned by a private organization. Therefore, they can ask to search absolutely ANYTHING that you wish to bring onto their property. The Fair does not belong to the people or the city.

But again, to answer your question, I draw the line at a Government stepping up and demanding that we submit. THAT IS NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE!!!

The answer is clear and concise.
Get it now???

[KBCraig]

I draw the line at a government deciding its their place to conduct these searches. If you would do a little research you would no doubt find this and this. They both plainly state that the "State Fair of Texas" is owned by a private organization. Therefore, they can ask to search absolutely ANYTHING that you wish to bring onto their property. The Fair does not belong to the people or the city.

No one's arguing a private organization's right to control access. But, it's highly objectionable to involve the police in the process.

I don't believe that DPD demands to be notified of all CHLs wanting to enter, so that they can record IDs and guns carried. It's SFoT policy to require notification of DPD; not the other way around. When DPD records CHL info, it's clear that they're acting at the behest of Fair management.

I will say this: at least DPD are keeping to their LE role, and not acting as security. I can't abide blurring the line between LE and private security; a LEO cannot be simultaneously LEO and security: he must be one, or the other.

Kevin