Quick question about an event

[BlakeTyner]

I have a question from my boss.

He owns a private business here and was told by the local police that he cannot carry a handgun on his property while it is open to the public. I'm not sure how the logistics work out, because he both lives and works on the property. We have customers in his back yard, basically.

The LEO said something about the fact that being open to the public somehow nullifies the right to carry on the property, but I couldn't find that in the Texas Penal Code. The only thing I could find was the section where it talked about property that a person owns, or controls, but no subsection that limited the right to carry.

Yes, I know the right answer is for him to get a CHL, which I've convinced him of, but both of us were curious about what statute the LEO was talking about. It can't be a city ordinance as we are outside city limits.

Thanks in advance.

[txinvestigator]

I have a question from my boss.

He owns a private business here and was told by the local police that he cannot carry a handgun on his property while it is open to the public. I'm not sure how the logistics work out, because he both lives and works on the property. We have customers in his back yard, basically.

The LEO said something about the fact that being open to the public somehow nullifies the right to carry on the property, but I couldn't find that in the Texas Penal Code. The only thing I could find was the section where it talked about property that a person owns, or controls, but no subsection that limited the right to carry.

Yes, I know the right answer is for him to get a CHL, which I've convinced him of, but both of us were curious about what statute the LEO was talking about. It can't be a city ordinance as we are outside city limits.

Thanks in advance.

The police who told him that are wrong. He can carry, open or concealed, on his own premises or premises under his control. Period. There is no "open to the public" exception.

He should ask the LEO who misinformed him to please tell him chapter and verse where that law is, "so he can be sure he understands it and follows it completely."

[seamusTX]

The police who told him that are wrong.

Ditto.

He should ask the LEO who misinformed him to please tell him chapter and verse where that law is, "so he can be sure he understands it and follows it completely."

Or just forget he heard it and not bring up the subject again with that person.

I can't remember how many times "experts" have told me something was illegal when it wasn't.

- Jim

[Glockamolie]

I guess that cop has never been to a gun store or a pawn shop where the employees open carry.

[carlson1]

I hope he also stays out of my Church during the week. I may get caught.

[BlakeTyner]

Thanks, guys. That's what I said, too, but I figured it'd be best to cover all bases.

[KBCraig]

I guess that cop has never been to a gun store or a pawn shop where the employees open carry.

Actually, we've discussed that here on the forum. Technically speaking, those employees are UCW, because only the person who "owns or controls" the property is exempt.

Kevin

[AG-EE]

It would seem to me to be quite an abrogation of private property rights for the state to tell a person they cannot allow other people to carry on their property. Besides, if they are an employee, could it not be argued that they are given some amount of "control" over the property during their work hours?

[KD5NRH]

It would seem to me to be quite an abrogation of private property rights for the state to tell a person they cannot allow other people to carry on their property. Besides, if they are an employee, could it not be argued that they are given some amount of "control" over the property during their work hours?

IMO, that's where it would become a legal mess if anyone were ever dragged into court over such a situation; there's no definition of "property under the actor's control" to say whether it must be complete control, or just how much control would be needed to qualify. A LE friend once told me that the rule of thumb he used was that anyone who could give notice of criminal trespass for the property could carry on it. That would seem to make sense as a good baseline for "control," but I'd like to see a test case.

[Roger Howard]

I guess that cop has never been to a gun store or a pawn shop where the employees open carry.

Actually, we've discussed that here on the forum. Technically speaking, those employees are UCW, because only the person who "owns or controls" the property is exempt.

Kevin

A property owner (business owner renting space) can allow anyone he/she wants to carry on their property.

[KBCraig]

A property owner (business owner renting space) can allow anyone he/she wants to carry on their property.

Simply not true, when you're talking about open carry.

Kevin

[Roger Howard]

A property owner (business owner renting space) can allow anyone he/she wants to carry on their property.

Simply not true, when you're talking about open carry.

Kevin

OK KB, what am I missing here? What is the Statute that prohibits an authorized person from carrying?

[dihappy]

A property owner (business owner renting space) can allow anyone he/she wants to carry on their property.

Does this include the owner of a bar?

[KBCraig]

OK KB, what am I missing here? What is the Statute that prohibits an authorized person from carrying?

You're approaching it from the wrong angle. You have to find a statute that authorizes them to carry, not the other way around.

Texas law is restrictive when it comes to handguns. The law says that it is unlawful to have a handgun "on or about" one's person. Everything that allows you to have a handgun is an exception to that basic premise.

The basic exceptions are:
- Being a LEO
- Having a CHL
- Being a licensed security guard
- Being in/on property that you own or control
- Engaging in, or traveling to or from, sporting activities requiring use of the handgun
- Traveling

There is no exception for "having permission" when you're on someone else's property. The property owner can't just designate you as "security", because armed security guards have their own set of strict requirements. I'm sure txinvestigator can elaborate on that.

This is one of those things that will never be enforced, but gun shop employees who openly carry are violating the law.

Kevin

[Roger Howard]

Ok i get all that but couldn't an employee be under control of a property and still carry. I have had control of property that an owner of the business was there only 2 or 3 times a year. Not saying your wrong, just trying to learn here.