While at Church Last Night...

[elwood blooz]

Let me set the scene, service on Wednesdays are held in the rec center, round tables with six or seven chairs at each. There are about 15 tables plus rows of chairs to the left of the building, this is usually where drinks and desserts are kept along with the sound man. There are always at least four or five people sitting there.
My GF and her parents (who are members) are sitting at an outside table about three rows back, two people to my left with GF and her parents to my right.
I recently got my XD back from the gunsmith and decided to carry it last night instead of my 1911. Each weapon has two extra mags but the 1911 mags are pocket carried and XD mags are in belt held mag holder.

I'm not a large guy, right at six foot, 200 lbs but after sitting in the plastic chairs for a while I began stirring looking for the comfort zone. About half way through the service I hear a loud "clank" on the tile floor and realize that one of my mags had hit the floor. I picked it up immediately and put it under my leg until I can store it in GF purse during closing prayer. I knew that several people had heard and saw the magazine hit the floor.

Service ended and we begin to depart, GF and mom in front of me, her dad behind me. As we got closer to the door I hear my name being called from behind. A gentleman approaches me and says, I understand that you dropped a "clip" (his words) are you carrying a gun? I asked respectfully and you are? Being a visitor, there are many I don't know. He pulls his ID from his breast pocket which shows him to be a Sheriffs Deputy and I inform him that I am indeed carrying and that I haven't broken any laws by doing so. He agreed and said that the church frowns on weapons in the church and that they have several LEO in the congregation other than himself to look over everything. He also mentioned that he wasn't carrying his weapon. He asked me to leave it in the vehicle from now on. He also mentioned something about the preacher not understanding these things.

This was eating at my GF and I, being we're visitors and all, plus it being her parents church. So I go back inside to apologize to the preacher for the disruption. I was led to believe that the preacher knew what had happened earlier, or maybe that's just the way I "heard" it. I found the preacher and spoke to him about what had happened and he thanked me for discussing it with him, he did not know or see it happen, he told me not to loose any sleep over this because it's not a big deal but he would like me to leave it outside for the time being. He also informed me that the church is currently getting a security detail together and someone may get with me in the future on this.

So, I don't like the idea of leaving my weapon outside during service. We usually don't go right home after service, we may stop for a bite, store, etc. It's not in a bad area but that doesn't mean a thing in this day and time. I was asked by two people of authority to leave my weapon in the vehicle for the time being.

Lets discuss...

[Kythas]

I'd say if the preacher asked you to leave it outside, you've been given effective verbal notice.

[chefkristian]

Person of authority or not, I believe they need to have proper signage posted in order for them to prohibit you from carrying. Correct? Could you possibly face arrest since you were verbally told not to carry? Or will a good defense attorney get you off the hook bcause of the signage loophole.

Inquiring minds want to know!

-K

[dicion]

... He also mentioned that he wasn't carrying his weapon....

That should tell you all you need to know right there...
Apparently this LEO doesn't believe that bad things can happen anywhere, so I wouldn't trust his judgment on anything else, personally.
Just my 2c.


Second.... the LEO had no authority to tell you not to carry there (not being the owner, or representative of the owner). But by taking it further, If the preacher told you not to carry there, however, THAT qualifies as notice under 30.06. You pretty much messed up there.

[KD5NRH]

I'd say if the preacher asked you to leave it outside, you've been given effective verbal notice.

...that the preacher doesn't trust you unless you're disarmed. Is that really what you're looking for in a spiritual guide?

[chefkristian]

Second.... the LEO had no authority to tell you not to carry there (not being the owner, or representative of the owner). But by taking it further, If the preacher told you not to carry there, however, THAT qualifies as notice under 30.06. You pretty much messed up there.

Well that cleared up my post, thanks.

[flb_78]

Sounds like a range day is in order with the preacherman.

[dicion]

Second.... the LEO had no authority to tell you not to carry there (not being the owner, or representative of the owner). But by taking it further, If the preacher told you not to carry there, however, THAT qualifies as notice under 30.06. You pretty much messed up there.

Well that cleared up my post, thanks.

Well, the rub on 'verbal notice' is yes, while it is legally sufficient according to the law, how can you 'Prove' you gave someone verbal notice?
Without a recording, witnesses, or some other proof it becomes your word versus theirs. In a court of 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that generally wouldn't stand.

[Keith B]

Second.... the LEO had no authority to tell you not to carry there (not being the owner, or representative of the owner). But by taking it further, If the preacher told you not to carry there, however, THAT qualifies as notice under 30.06. You pretty much messed up there.

Well that cleared up my post, thanks.

Actually, I believe the LEO COULD have the authority. All that has to happen is the Pastor telling him 'You have the authority to keep anyone from entering the church with a firearm', and he is now deputized (pun intended) and is an official representative of the church. He is now a person of authority and the oral notification you had received is valid. All it would take to convict would be the Pastor testifying or swearing a statement that the LEO had the authority to advise.

[A-R]

Person of authority or not, I believe they need to have proper signage posted in order for them to prohibit you from carrying. Correct? Could you possibly face arrest since you were verbally told not to carry? Or will a good defense attorney get you off the hook bcause of the signage loophole.

Inquiring minds want to know!

-K

Penal Code 30.06 (b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

underlining added for emphasis on relevant portion

I would argue the LEO telling you to leave the gun outside does not have apparent authority beyond the immediate situation - meaning OP could carry on his next visit - though OP would be stiring quite a hornets nest by doing so. But by taking his inquiry to the preacher and the preacher telling him to keep the gun outside, he has definitely been given notice under PC 30.06 and any further carrying of a firearm into that church is a clear violation of the law.

Edited to add: I agree with Keith B's hypothetical "deputizing" of the LEO above. If the preacher gave the LEO authority, then his oral notice is valid under 30.06 .... Keith and I were apparently typing at same time

While I obviously disagree with the decision of this LEO and preacher, I do commend them for the quiet, subtle way they communicated the church's wishes to the OP. Their wishes should be respected. Either don't carry or don't go. Of course, you could try to plead your case with the preacher again at another time (while not carrying). But seems his mind is fairly well made up on the matter.

Interesting the part about "getting with you" in the future about a "security detail". Your CHL is NOT a Security Guard license and carrying a gun while providing an organized security function for the church would also be a violation of law (though I don't know the relevant statute to cite - I've been told this directly from the DPS officer who oversees the security guard licensing program).

[A-R]

Reminder to all (seen it misused a few times already in this thread) ... PC 30.06 references "oral" communication, not "verbal". There is a very clear and important distinction

Verbal - of or pertaining to words
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/verbal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oral - uttered by the mouth; spoken
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oral" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the context, verbal notice may or may not be valid under PC 30.06 depending upon whether the verbal notice was oral or written and if written did it conform to requirements of the statute for written communication.

Oral notice by someone with authority is ALWAYS valid under PC 30.06

[ELB]

..., how can you 'Prove' you gave someone verbal notice?
Without a recording, witnesses, or some other proof it becomes your word versus theirs. In a court of 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that generally wouldn't stand.

Right. Two different people, onea preacher and one a LEO and at least a church member, told him not to. You might be too young to remember Archie Bunker and a "car load of nuns." The fact that the LEO might not be in the official church hierarchy (and who knows, maybe he is), the LEO relayed the preacher's intention to him. This would not go down well for the OP with an arresting officer or court.


Having said that, the preacher is a fool, and the LEO is a bigger fool. MIght be time to find a new church.

It is also a good idea to shake down all your gear before using it for serious purposes. Carrying all by itself is serious business, even if there is no shooting involved.

[elwood blooz]

... He also mentioned that he wasn't carrying his weapon....

Second.... the LEO had no authority to tell you not to carry there (not being the owner, or representative of the owner). But by taking it further, If the preacher told you not to carry there, however, THAT qualifies as notice under 30.06. You pretty much messed up there.

The only reason I went to the preacher was because it is my GF parents church. This isn't our first time to visit, being I believed he had already been told or saw what happened, I wanted to make sure he heard what happened from me rather than the rumor saying I dropped a Bazooka. If this hadn't been their church then I would not have approached the preacher at all.

[elwood blooz]

Sounds like a range day is in order with the preacherman.

This could happen. I don't believe he is anti 2A by any means. Could it be that he doesn't know me at all, could be. Only time will tell.

[A-R]

Carrying all by itself is serious business, even if there is no shooting involved.

great way to put it.

When discussing CHL with non licensees who are interested, I sometimes get the question "Have you ever had to use your gun?" I respond quite seriously "I USE my gun every day."

The simple act of carrying a gun is using it to improve my odds of surviving a violent attack. It's not a clothing accessory. It's a serious and sobering responsbility, and a potentially life-saving tool.

By staying in the mindset that I am USING my gun every time I carry it, I am better able to keep it in proper context and not become complacent. Carrying my gun every day is a conscious act, not merely a mindless routine.