Carrying at the Post Office

[thatguy]

I have an open question about carring my gun on Federal property, like the post office. I know that I cant carry inside the building but does the parking lot exclusion apply on Federal property? What about other Federal installations, where can I direct my students to find this information?

Be Safe,

Brian Mobley,

CHL Instructor
NRA Pistol Instructor
NRA Patron Life Member
TSRA Member
Master Mason and Shriner

[Purplehood]

I think the previously discussed consensus is that Federal property includes the parking lot and thus it is a no-no. Search and you will find some long threads on the subject.

[A-R]

search this forum and you'll find a ton of threads debating this issue.

This is a good write up about the subject from an Ohio attorney http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Conceale ... -awakening" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And take a look at the US Codes mentioned in the link above. I refer my students to the specific US Codes and to the above write up.

[gwashorn]

I do not remember which thread it was but someone had asked the question of a higher up in the post office and got a somewhat favorable answer regarding the parking lot. Anyone remember which one it was? I have a vested interest in this one.

Gary

[Justin Franklin]

I spoke with a compliance officer at the BATFE and they were unaware of any law restricting the public from carrying in their vehicles in the parking lots.

I called my local Post Office and they also were unaware of any restrictions on the parking lots.

I will try to dig deeper into this one later…..

[ScottDLS]

search this forum and you'll find a ton of threads debating this issue.

This is a good write up about the subject from an Ohio attorney http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Conceale ... -awakening" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And take a look at the US Codes mentioned in the link above. I refer my students to the specific US Codes and to the above write up.

I've posted this before in an earlier thread...but I did some research in the Federal criminal code and CFR and my understading is that if the post office is using 18 USC 930 to prohibit carry then it only covers "facilities" which generally means in the building and also carries notice requirements. There is some question whether 18 USC 930 applies to Post Offices. The post office regs prohibiting carry on their "property" seem to point to 39 USC 410 as their authority and that's what the Buckeye posting discusses, but then goes off to reference an Ohio law which is irrelevant in Texas. As I point out in my post below if the restriction is based on 39 USC 410, the maximum penalty that applies is a $50 fine and possible 30 days in jail.


--------------Here's my original post where I was asking a follow up of Chas. on which Federal law he felt applied to the Post Office prohibition.--------------------
A few things that come to mind in this discussion...

What is the implementing legislation for the CFR prohibiting firearms on Post Office property? If it is 18 USC 930, then I agree you could not carry in a Post Office facility, but you'd seem to be OK in the parking lot and on the property based on the definition of facility and the requirements for posting notice in the law.

If it's 39 USC 410 as the Buckeye Firearms attorney suggests in his web page analysis, then I don't find the elements of the crime nor a definition of the punishment for violating the regulation, at least not in the law (39 USC 410). In fact, if 18 USC 930 is not applicable, the penalty described in the CFR (not the law) is a $50 fine and up to 30 days in jail that could be imposed by a federal magistrate. Same as you could get for smoking, posting handbills, or other conduct prohibited by the Postal CFR. That's kind of the federal equivalent of a Texas Class C misdemeanor, not that I'd advocate breaking the law.

The Buckeye firearms attorney goes on to describe an Ohio law that makes it an Ohio felony to carry where prohibited/posted. So what I see here in Texas... Either you can carry on postal property, but not in a facility, based on 18 USC 930. Or you can't carry on either, based on 39 CFR 232.1, but the maximum penalty is $50 fine and 30 days in jail, and that's IF the CFR can act to create a crime that is not set out in an enabling statute or elsewhere in federal criminal law

[Oldgringo]

As my dear old Mother often told me, "...if you have to ask permission, you already know the answer".

[ELB]

hmmmm. "FAQ-man" feels a disturbance in the force...

[MoJo]

If I'm going to the Post Office I either leave the gun at home or park across the street and lock it in the viehicle.

[ELB]

'tis done. FAQ-man is at peace again.

FAQ: Carrying at the US Post Office

[wcalvert]

My CHL instructor spent quite a bit of time on post offices and carrying this last weekend. he is currently an LEO for Harris County Sheriff's office and has been an LEO in Houston for 36 years. He said that there is almost always a set of double doors to access federal employees and you could safely carry outside those double doors. New post offices don't have the double doors, but are open and have detectors. you of course are not allowed to pass the detectors. he said before you carry at any post office you should ask someone at that location.

This seems to be somewhat contradicting to what y'all are saying...

[Keith B]

'tis done. FAQ-man is at peace again.

FAQ: Carrying at the US Post Office

Do you have a cape and tights for that job FAQ-man?

[Keith B]

My CHL instructor spent quite a bit of time on post offices and carrying this last weekend. he is currently an LEO for Harris County Sheriff's office and has been an LEO in Houston for 36 years. He said that there is almost always a set of double doors to access federal employees and you could safely carry outside those double doors. New post offices don't have the double doors, but are open and have detectors. you of course are not allowed to pass the detectors. he said before you carry at any post office you should ask someone at that location.

This seems to be somewhat contradicting to what y'all are saying...

Unfortunately there is not really any case law, where an individual with a CHL has been arrested for going into or onto post office property, to more clearly define the boundaries. I think what your CHL instructor did is what many of them and us do, and that is try to set a reasonable 'line in the sand' that works to allow you to have your gun close and will 99.9% keep you out of trouble. Bottom line, there are no hard facts or guidance other than what the federal code states and everyone's lay interpretation of that statute.

[pt145ss]

The post office near us is split into two clearly defined areas. One area is the post office boxes and the self help machines. There are no detectors as you go into this area and no signs. The second area is the customer service area. As you walk through this area you must pass though the detectors and on the wall as you enter that area is a sign the makes reference to 18 USC 930 (IIRC). I do not know what all is involved in the arguments here, but I did read 18 USC 930 which does prohibit firearms inside a federal facility. It also clearly defines a federal facility to be to building owned or leased by the FED. I did not see any where in the code that talked about “property”…just facility. The last section of the code talked about sign posting requirements. And it seems that this particular post office is in compliance by posting at the entrance of the customer service area.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

[MoJo]

My CHL instructor spent quite a bit of time on post offices and carrying this last weekend. he is currently an LEO for Harris County Sheriff's office and has been an LEO in Houston for 36 years. He said that there is almost always a set of double doors to access federal employees and you could safely carry outside those double doors. New post offices don't have the double doors, but are open and have detectors. you of course are not allowed to pass the detectors. he said before you carry at any post office you should ask someone at that location.

This seems to be somewhat contradicting to what y'all are saying...

Unfortunately there is not really any case law, where an individual with a CHL has been arrested for going into or onto post office property, to more clearly define the boundaries. I think what your CHL instructor did is what many of them and us do, and that is try to set a reasonable 'line in the sand' that works to allow you to have your gun close and will 99.9% keep you out of trouble. Bottom line, there are no hard facts or guidance other than what the federal code states and everyone's lay interpretation of that statute.

Any volunteers to be a test case? - - - Hello? - - - Hello? - - - I didn't think so.