CHL'ers and church security

[D.R.T.]

I'm sure this has been discussed here before but after searching I couldn't find where...anyway, what legal way can CHL'ers serve the church in a security way while carrying? Or can they? My take on it is that they can't, but if a situation occurs and you happen to be there then that's one thing, but if you are volunteering to walk around making sure there is no suspicious activity then that is another...any info on this?? My church has been asking around about what is legal and what is not, so I wanted to check with everyone here for advice and input. Any is greatly appreciated! THanks!

[RPB]

"serve the church in a security way"

My thoughts are a CHL can choose a seat "tactically" (to encounter an evil being entering early, and you knowing what is behind them etc etc etc)

but you don't want to be "security" without a license Re:the Private Investigators/Security ....
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/psb/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At my church, Deacons and retired LEOs and CHLs are armed, we sort of seat ourselves scattered out, such that it would take time for a shooter to focus on each in different parts of the room at many angles, while being covered or getting return fire from various angles. They are Deacons and CHLs and wives with CHLs, they are not "security"

There have been some prior posts on Churches hiring "private Security" and potential liability issues.

One I attended had a uniformed security guard in a parking lot, but That requires a license as a Security guard and a special license if the guard is armed.

You wouldn't want a conviction for acting as an armed Security guard without a license, which might get your CHL taken away.

[wally775]

+1 for not being "security"

[mreavis]

Law says its their choice for 30.06. I would not suggest doing or saying anything that gives off the appearance that you are carrying for any reason but self defense.

However, on the off chance someone storms the room your in looking for blood, you will be in all fair right to shoot them quickly when the opportunity arises.

IMO part of carrying a CHL is realizing when to use the gun and not though. And that is a fairly obvious statement when it comes to determining the level of threat. The other more difficult part is discerning when to take action once the threat has become real. When your being rushed in an ally 1 on 1 its almost always as quickly as possible. When your in a room full of innocent people, as wrong as it may feel, you may have to wait a minute or so before a safe shot can be taken.

[chasfm11]

There are some really interesting questions associated with this topic.

1. In another State in a church that we attended, someone was assigned to walk the halls of the building during services. The idea was to thwart opportunists that might try to steal something while everyone was occupied and to watch over the kids rooms. No guns were involved. Based on this thread, that kind of duty assignment might fall under the licensed security guard designation in Texas. Many security guards are unarmed. Being assigned to that role, even if those making the assignment were unaware that the person had a CHL and was carrying would almost certainly be illegal based on this thread.

2. Our current church has a "C" type congregational seating arrangement that circles the alter everywhere but where the choir sits (the open part of the C.) There are two main entrances but those seated closest to the entrances have their backs facing the doors. The distance from the seats where a BG could be seen entering the doors is near the edge of practical handgun range. Engagement would require trying to shoot over the heads of the congregation on the door side or physically moving around the outside of the C to get closer. Moving would involve a completely exposed approach and more than a few seconds to accomplish it. I do carry during services but I have no current idea what I could do in an armed attack or how I would go about it. Like any other large gathering, taking any action at all would be extremely difficult without huge risks to innocent people. Classrooms containing children are directly behind one of the entrances (which comes in on an "L" I'm approaching this from an individual security standpoint and not because I have a batman license regarding my church.

3. I have not yet asked discrete questions about CHL of the church elders to see if they are aware of members who have them. Our church is not 30.06 posted and I want to keep it that way. I suspect that there are some antis among the church board members and would hate to have an innocent inquiry end up with a legal sign.

[speedsix]

...I do carry, but will not discuss it with the pastor or church deacons...I'm a private citizen, no part of security, and do not want a lib to rise up and squawk and get the church posted...there's only one way it'll come up in conversation...and that's if I have to protect myself or family...my sons are the same...praying we never need to...
...there are a lot of Christians who sincerely believe that we should never take a life or use violence...the odds are great that if the topic comes up, they, being large contributors to the church or in decision-making positions, will have the church posted...

...discretion IS the better part of valor...

[ZeeMan]

in my church our Pastor is a CHL holder, and carries, his f-i-l is a CHL holder and carries, 2 other men that I know of are also and do so. The Pastor and his f-i-l whom I look up to as a Spiritual leader are the two men urging me most to get my CHL. There is no doubt amongst the "men of influence"(we have no true deacon/elder body)in our church as to what could potentially become if an armed assailant entered our buildings during a church service

[jmra]

"Safety Team", "Eyes and Ears Team", "Men in Tights"...

Call them anything you want to call them, but don't call them "Security" and don't discuss concealed carry. Your concealed carry in a non-posted church is no ones business but yours. If you are on one of these "non-security teams" and wind up shooting a bad guy that has or is about to shoot a bunch of people, I doubt very seriously anyone in the DA's office is going to want to deal with the negative press involved in trying to prosecute you. And even if they did, you saved the lives of your family - if that means going to jail so be it.

Just made me wonder something. If I am a member of the neighborhood watch program does that mean I am preforming a security function when I walk with my wife in the neighborhood?

[RPBrown]

There are several of us that are armed and have a seating arraingment. With 3 services we also "stroll around the parking lot" at different times. But we ARE NOT SECURITY. In fact some of the "strollers" do not carry nor do they know that any of us do. The pastor knows and carries as does the associate pastor.

During nice weather we may just sit at the table in the parking lot and have a cup of coffee while one of the services are going on.

However, I would not pull a weapon unless my life, or the life of another is in danger at that particular moment. I would however not hesitate to pull a cell phone and call 911 while trying to be a good witness.

[gdanaher]

Just made me wonder something. If I am a member of the neighborhood watch program does that mean I am preforming a security function when I walk with my wife in the neighborhood?

If you are walking per a schedule set up by the team, then yes. If you and your lovely wife are out, exercising, listening to nature as you make the route, then no. Just randomly walking in the neighborhood, and carrying, couldn't be construed as providing security.

[74novaman]

...I do carry, but will not discuss it with the pastor or church deacons...I'm a private citizen, no part of security, and do not want a lib to rise up and squawk and get the church posted...

I agree. The topic of church security actually came up last sunday in my sunday school class. I just said that I wouldn't be opposed to having security and left it at that. I have suspicions several others in church have their chls, but have never brought it up with them.

[alvins]

i find it interesting a church needs security at all. you need someone to walk to halls to make sure things dont get stolen during service?lol

[RPB]

i find it interesting a church needs security at all. you need someone to walk to halls to make sure things dont get stolen during service?lol

Actually that's not far from the truth.
Church air conditioners stolen twice for the copper at a Houston church.
Car break ins occur.

Some churches could have been built 150 years ago ... and neighborhoods change.
When I was young, we used to sleep on cots at 3-day meetings outside, now everyone gets motels, not just because of the weather.

[74novaman]

Yeah, because people never try to shoot up a church....why should those fools need security??

/sarcasm

[D.R.T.]

Great info! This is pretty much what I was thinking...I'm glad for the reassurance...thanks for all your posts! I now have the information to make informed discussions with my fellow Chl'ers(friends that I know carry at church.)