verbal 30.06 notice in Church each time ?

[wgoforth]

IF you feel you could talk to them about it, well and good. Downside is you risk being given verbal notice.

I might be treading a little off topic. . . but I wouldn't be a member anywhere I I couldn't have access to the pastor to have a personal chat. Apologies to those at the mega-churches, that's just my feeling.

Oh and I agree....didn't mean have access, but rather whether you felt he was gun friendly enough to be able to have the discussion with to begin with.

[wgoforth]

Church minister here....yes, to be told verbally is permenent until told otherwise. BUT, I have never considered security anywhere to be anyone of official staff to be authorized to give such notice. For ME, I would play shut mouth, check my concealment, and carry until such time as board member, minister, etc tells you not to. IF you feel you could talk to them about it, well and good. Downside is you risk being given verbal notice.

That is the key.... Whether it is a church or a business, the question is, "Does the person who gave the notice have the authority to give such notice?" Let's take a shoe store as an example.... You sit down and bend over to try on a pair of shoes, and the sales clerk sees your gun printing and informs you that your concealed carry weapon is not permitted in that store. Is he/she giving you their personal opinion and preference; or is he/she informing you of a written store policy? The former means you can ignore him/her. The latter means you have to leave.

Churches are no different. So if the security officer in question (doesn't matter if they are off-duty LEO or not) informs you that you cannot carry your gun in church, are they informing you of their own opinion, or are they informing you of an established church policy of which the church leadership are aware? If the former, you can ignore that person. If the latter, then you have to leave. Church security people don't write the policy. Church leaders do. Security makes their recommendations, and then the leadership chooses to follow or ignore those recommendations based on their spiritual principles. So, you have to find out in advance of any such confrontation whether or not your church actually has such a rule. If they don't, you can tell the officer to place his concerns where the sun don't shine—diplomatically, of course, and feel free to "church it up" all you need to in order to not deliberately offend. If the church does have such a rule, then you have a decision of conscience to make as to whether or not you can continue to belong to a church that does not value your life enough to permit you the means of defending it. To each his/her own, and I wouldn't criticize you for choosing to stay; but I would personally start looking elsewhere unless the senior pastor could articulate an insurmountable spiritual reason in support of their policy.

Fortunately for me at my church, that is not likely to be a decision I'll ever have to face. I genuinely feel bad for people who do because, as any solid believer knows, the words "church home" carry a depth of meaning that may not be entirely understandable to non-believers.

I would certainly leave if security told me to, whether it was his opinion or no. Just not worth the risk of having law called. Doesn't mean I wouldn't check my concealment and be back another day. I am sure there are some churches that are as you describe, but in 30 years of full-time work, I have never personally encountered a church that had a detailed security policy. Hire him and let him do his work is what I have usually seen, if that. But then, I never worked with, or cared to, a mega-church type.

[jmra]

Church minister here....yes, to be told verbally is permenent until told otherwise. BUT, I have never considered security anywhere to be anyone of official staff to be authorized to give such notice. For ME, I would play shut mouth, check my concealment, and carry until such time as board member, minister, etc tells you not to. IF you feel you could talk to them about it, well and good. Downside is you risk being given verbal notice.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that statement. I would agree that if you, the Pastor, gave me verbal notice as long as you remained in a position of authority within that church (and did not communicate to me that it is now ok to carry) that I could no longer legally carry in that church. However, if you were to leave that Church, once you are no longer in a position of authority, the verbal notice is no longer valid. Even if you stated that the board directed you to give me verbal notice, unless there was something in writing from the board stating that they directed you to do so, once you are no longer in a position of authority the notice is no longer valid.

To suggest that verbal notice is for enternity would be the same as suggesting that if a 30.06 sign were errected for a day, anyone seeing that sign could never enter the establishment again even though the sign was removed at the end of the day and never errected again.

[SewTexas]

I'm not sure what the beef is with the 'mega-church' They are the ones who historically have to deal with security issues, well, all of the larger churches, up to and including 'mega-churches'. Over most of my adult life I've attended large churches, until the last two years. Even in the largest church I attended, the senior pastor was 'accessible' if the issue was important enough to the person.

[wgoforth]

I'm not sure what the beef is with the 'mega-church' They are the ones who historically have to deal with security issues, well, all of the larger churches, up to and including 'mega-churches'. Over most of my adult life I've attended large churches, until the last two years. Even in the largest church I attended, the senior pastor was 'accessible' if the issue was important enough to the person.

Mega churches are 2,000 or more members. Good luck asking Joel Osteen if you can conceal carry!
NTW, I have preached for a couple of small churches, that due to their location, had to deal with security as well.

[SewTexas]

2,000? I would have gone higher than that! that counts 1st Baptist of Georgetown, I'm pretty sure, and I wouldn't have counted that as a mega church, (it's big, now....I remember when....). When I think mega- I think Warren, Osteen, and a couple others in H. oh, well, I'm sure you know what you're talking about.

[wgoforth]

2,000? I would have gone higher than that! that counts 1st Baptist of Georgetown, I'm pretty sure, and I wouldn't have counted that as a mega church, (it's big, now....I remember when....). When I think mega- I think Warren, Osteen, and a couple others in H. oh, well, I'm sure you know what you're talking about.

Yes, the 10,000 member are definitly mega church, but the dictionary definition is 2,000 and above. Keep in mind when I said "IF you can talk with the preacher" wasn't about access to him, but whether the member felt comfortable in going to him and whether they thought he was gun friendly or not. If he isn't, then they risk a more official "no."

[C-dub]

I'm not sure what the current membership of my church is, but as of 2006 we had over 6,200 registered families. I seem to remember hearing about at least 6,500 a couple of years ago. I would consider our church to be medium sized. I am a regular member and we greet, speak with, and shake our priest's hand after every mass. I can also meet and speak with him almost anytime he's at the church.

Joel Osteen's Lakewood church has a membership over 45,000 locally and something well over 100,000 worldwide. They can seat over 16,000 at each service. Now, that's a MEGA-church!

[wgoforth]

I'm not sure what the current membership of my church is, but as of 2006 we had over 6,200 registered families. I seem to remember hearing about at least 6,500 a couple of years ago. I would consider our church to be medium sized. I am a regular member and we greet, speak with, and shake our priest's hand after every mass. I can also meet and speak with him almost anytime he's at the church.

Joel Osteen's Lakewood church has a membership over 45,000 locally and something well over 100,000 worldwide. They can seat over 16,000 at each service. Now, that's a MEGA-church!

You will be surprised then to find that the average church in America has under 99 members in attendance. 59% of all churches fit that catagory. 35% has between 1-500. Only .4% (not 4% but .4) has over 2,000. .01% has 10,000 or more. Again, Please note by "can you talk to your preacher" was not about access to, but comfort level in talking to him about guns.

The Hartford Institute for Religious Studies gives this definition of a megachurch:

Q: What’s the definition of a megachurch, and how many are there in the United States?
A: Megachurches are not all alike, but they do share some common features. Hartford Seminary Sociologist Scott Thumma who compiled the 2005 “Megachurches Today” survey defines a megachurch as a congregation with at least 2,000 people attending each Sunday. These churches tend to have a charismatic senior minister and an active array of social and outreach ministries seven days a week.

[C-dub]

I'm not sure what the current membership of my church is, but as of 2006 we had over 6,200 registered families. I seem to remember hearing about at least 6,500 a couple of years ago. I would consider our church to be medium sized. I am a regular member and we greet, speak with, and shake our priest's hand after every mass. I can also meet and speak with him almost anytime he's at the church.

Joel Osteen's Lakewood church has a membership over 45,000 locally and something well over 100,000 worldwide. They can seat over 16,000 at each service. Now, that's a MEGA-church!

You will be surprised then to find that the average church in America has under 99 members in attendance. 59% of all churches fit that catagory. 35% has between 1-500. Only .4% (not 4% but .4) has over 2,000. .01% has 10,000 or more. Again, Please note by "can you talk to your preacher" was not about access to, but comfort level in talking to him about guns.

WOW! I had no idea. I know my church is not small, but wow. I'm actually shocked that we fit into that category. I think almost every one of the churches in our diocese here in DFW is above 2,000 and one or two might be over 10,000.

Okay, I have not broached the subject of guns with our priest. I have the feeling he is okay with them, but don't want to take the chance. Our church is not posted and as far as I know there is no mention of weapons anywhere.

[03Lightningrocks]

Humm, I've been reading the thread "Looking for a New Church" viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46406 and did not want to hijack the thread, so I stated a new one..

I have similar problem, at least one LEO, if not more, is always at the Church, and is known to be the security, Now the question is, IF a CHL is told with a verbal 30.06 notice (none posted), of course they would leave and dis-arm, BUT would you consider this a "one-time" verbal notice, and could you show up at the next meeting armed again.. ?

Or is a one time verbal notice a ok, you can never carry there again?

Also, can a off duty LEO give you a verbal 30.06 notice, if he is NOT on the staff ?

Also, would this be a your word against my word? BAT

How in the world would he know you had a concealed handgun? ANSWER.... HE WOULDN'T... UNLESS YOU WERE BRAGGING ABOUT YOUR CHL! Your situation will never happen to those of us who actually "CARRY CONCEALED" and keep our traps closed. We don't glow with a different color when we carry a weapon. Nobody can possibly know unless you tell them... or do something stupid and expose your weapon. In either case, you reap what you sow.

As others have said... verbal notice means you can never carry there again.

[Photoman]

How in the world would he know you had a concealed handgun?

That's what I was wondering. Loose lips sink ships...

[jmra]

I'm not sure what the current membership of my church is, but as of 2006 we had over 6,200 registered families. I seem to remember hearing about at least 6,500 a couple of years ago. I would consider our church to be medium sized. I am a regular member and we greet, speak with, and shake our priest's hand after every mass. I can also meet and speak with him almost anytime he's at the church.

Joel Osteen's Lakewood church has a membership over 45,000 locally and something well over 100,000 worldwide. They can seat over 16,000 at each service. Now, that's a MEGA-church!

Not sure how it's done everywhere but we don't look at how many people we have "registered" (members). Depending on the membership requirements and how often the books are updated to remove those who have moved or passed on, some church's membership numbers can be many times the number of people who actually attend consistently. We look at the average Sunday morning attendance. For us that runs about 2800.

I don't have any trouble getting face time with my pastor. As long as I am standing in my driveway with two cups of coffee at 6:00am on Sunday morning he will slow down enough for me to jump in.

For those who don't get up that early on Sunday, our pastor makes himself available to greet everyone in a "connections" area in the concourse after each service. It's a fun time for the "Eyes and Ears" team.

[C-dub]

I don't have any trouble getting face time with my pastor. As long as I am standing in my driveway with two cups of coffee at 6:00am on Sunday morning he will slow down enough for me to jump in.

I think our church seats around 700-800. I don't know how many people go to multiple services a week, but it can get pretty full. Sometimes there are even people standing on the sides and back. There are separate English and Spanish masses. I can see the 6,500 number as being fairly representative of members that attend mass at least once a week.

[srothstein]

That is the key.... Whether it is a church or a business, the question is, "Does the person who gave the notice have the authority to give such notice?"

Just a minor technical correction, but it could make a big difference in people's behavior.The law does not say it has to be a person with the authority to issue the warning. The actual wording of the law is "apparent authority" and therein lies a potential problem.

If the manager tells you, he has the apparent authority. The board may have a policy specifically saying he cannot do that, but at the time he told you, it appeared to you that he had that authority. The warning would be legal. The real question is if a security guard has the apparent authority. I would think a uniformed security guard working on a post where he is properly paid to provide the security would be deemed by the court to have the apparent authority. In reality he may not have it, but at the time he gave you the notice, it would appear so and as such, I think the notice would be valid.

The off-duty officer working security at the church by donating his time is nowhere near as clear. If it is common knowledge to the congregation that he is working there, he might be construed by the court to have the apparent authority. If he is just another member trying to put together a security team for the church, but it is not yet officially recongized as existing, I would say definitely not.