Vehicle concealed definition

[Ruark]

I've often wondered about the vagaries of this requirement. For example, does "concealed" mean that it's not recognizable from somebody standing OUTSIDE the car, with the windows up? For example, how about putting the gun in the map pocket inside the door? That might be "in view" to somebody sitting in the driver's seat, or somebody standing there when the door is opened, but it's not visible from outside the car.

Another place is sticking down into the space between the seat and the console. You can see the back of the pistol grip down there, but only if you're actually in the car, sitting in the seat, not standing outside. Is that "concealed"?

[Keith B]

...correct...but he was quoting the statute...and that's where the confusion comes in...the statute defines what constitutes a violation...so if we don't commit those elements of what's defined as a crime...we're OK....

Well, the statute does not say that. The 'In plain view' only relates to a commisioned security officer while on duty in uniform:

(4) holds a security officer commission issued by the Texas [Board of Private Investigators and] Private Security
Board [Agencies], if:
(A) the person is engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a security officer or traveling to and from
the person's place of assignment;
(B) the person is wearing a distinctive uniform;
and
(C) the weapon is in plain view;

AND

(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(4) that the actor possessed a firearm or club while traveling to or from the actor's place of assignment or in the actual discharge of duties as a security officer commissioned by the Texas Board of Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies, if:
(1) the actor is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
(2) the firearm or club is in plain view

[speedsix]

...please read 46.02(a-1)(1)...that's what he was quoting...who's talking about 46.03???

...MPA is 46.02...

[Keith B]

The guys are right. One more nitpicking comment is the concealment standards for MPA are different than CHL.

The MPA standard is "the handgun is in plain view" and IANAL but I think there's probably a lot of case law what "in plain view" means.

Please explain.

I thought under MPA, the gun still has to be concealed inside the vehicle.

Yes, the MPA standard is "the hangun is NOT in plain view".

...please read 46.02(a-1)(1)...that's what he was quoting...who's talking about 46.03???

...MPA is 46.02...

The quote looked like he was stating it had to be in plain view for MPA. It is an offense per 46.02:

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view;

46.03 is the only exception to allow a handgun in plain view per the penal code.

[speedsix]

speedsix wrote:
...correct...but he was quoting the statute...and that's where the confusion comes in...the statute defines what constitutes a violation...so if we don't commit those elements of what's defined as a crime...we're OK....
...this...some more...
...now I see how you ended up in 46.03...welcome back...more coffee, as needed...

[Keith B]

I think I see where he was going; the question is what constitutes 'in plain view'.

Well, here's my thought, and that goes back to the definition on concealed: Not discernible to the average person. So, if the average person would look at the towel and not see that there was a gun hiding under it, then it is concealed. If the outline is there, then maybe it should be better covered.

[speedsix]

...so if we double the towel...it's cool!!!

[RPB]

I prefer keeping a newspaper in the car for that, because of the "printing."

[Keith B]

...so if we double the towel...it's cool!!!

Yep. Guns get hot in the car sitting in the sun if not covered. Doubling the towel would help that!

Seriously, anything that keeps the 'bump' from looking like the outline of a gun will do it. I break up the printing on my pocket pistols by carrying in a rectangular pocket holster or putting a small object down in the area left bu the muzzle/trigger guard with the Desantis Nemesis holster. It makes it look a lot more like a wallet or rectangular cell phone in the pocket than the outline of a pistol.

However, I reiterate that I don't leave an unsecured gun in the passneger seat under anything. Hitting the brakes really quickly or having an accident could cause the gun to become unconcealed, or worse it coudl start flying around the car if your are involved in a serious accident and cause a more serious injury to you (don't ask me how I know this .) I try not to leave any heavier object unsecured.

[speedsix]

...my most painful and frequent experiences regarding the hazards you describe involve a Thermos cup full of steaming coffee that began on the dashboard before I jerked it into drive and hit the gas...and ended up in my lap...I musta arrived at a dozen calls through the years...with wet pants...

[Texbow]

OK, OK, I got the part about not leaving the gun in the seat. Seriously, thanks to all the input. Great info. Thanks much.

[johnson0317]

...my most painful and frequent experiences regarding the hazards you describe involve a Thermos cup full of steaming coffee that began on the dashboard before I jerked it into drive and hit the gas...and ended up in my lap...I musta arrived at a dozen calls through the years...with wet pants...

Heck of a way to practice birth control.

[apostate]

However, I reiterate that I don't leave an unsecured gun in the passneger seat under anything. Hitting the brakes really quickly or having an accident could cause the gun to become unconcealed, or worse it coudl start flying around the car if your are involved in a serious accident and cause a more serious injury to you (don't ask me how I know this .) I try not to leave any heavier object unsecured.

I believe FBI Agents Manauzzi and Hanlon both lost their primary handguns in the Miami shootout because they were unsecured during the stop.

[jeffrw]

I wonder if a pistol is considered concealed if it's inside one of those standard triangular hard-sided carrying cases, but the case itself is in plain view on the passenger's seat?

Granted, neither the gun itself nor its outline is visible. But its presence might reasonably be suspected by ordinary observation.

[Texbow]

I wonder if a pistol is considered concealed if it's inside one of those standard triangular hard-sided carrying cases, but the case itself is in plain view on the passenger's seat?

Granted, neither the gun itself nor its outline is visible. But its presence might reasonably be suspected by ordinary observation.

I have wondered that same thing. I would guess though that having that visible would not be a good thing in that it would attract some attention from thieves. If it could be moved easily to under the seat or similar out of view location when your not in the vehicle, could work I guess.