Carry at Corps of Engineer Operated Park

[glockmav]

I'm going to a Corps of Engineer's operated park this evening. Rules say loaded firearms are prohibited in one place, then it says state and local laws regarding firearms are applicable. Do you think I can carry there with my Texas CHL?

[dpatterson]

I know I have never had a problem carrying at the lake... Which is under Corps control.. Have been harassed a couple times by Corps personnel and they never said anything when I gave them my CHL.

DP

[DSARGE]

I know I have never had a problem carrying at the lake... Which is under Corps control.. Have been harassed a couple times by Corps personnel and they never said anything when I gave them my CHL.

DP

How did they know? What was the situation? I frequent several Corps lakes and have wondered about these signs

[KBCraig]

I'm going to a Corps of Engineer's operated park this evening. Rules say loaded firearms are prohibited in one place, then it says state and local laws regarding firearms are applicable. Do you think I can carry there with my Texas CHL?

When they say state and local laws are applicable, they mean that they assimilate the state firearms law, so that they can charge you under those laws if you violate them. But they also have their own, stricter, laws than those of Texas.

(CFR 101: when Congress doesn't pass a specific law, but gives a federal agency authority to issue "rules", and those regulations, when they're recorded in the Code of Federal Regulations, have the weight of law. Federal law restricting firearms on federal property only applies in buildings, but many agencies have used their rule-making authority to ban or restrict firearms. That's how the National Park Service bans firearms, and it's how the CoE restricts firearms.)

Here's the relevant cite, from 36 CFR 327, which is titled, "RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS". In bureaucrabonics, that means all Corps land or water where you can hunt, fish, camp, picnic, visit, etc.

36 CFR 327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks

(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projective firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:

(1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;

(2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;

(3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or

(4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.

(b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

And 327.8 only says that hunting fishing and trapping are generally prohibited except as authorized by the district commander.

The rules you saw may have been a summary, instead of the official Rules (the capitalization denotes an officially-codified portion of the CFR).

And yes, there is wide regional discretion in enforcement, or what constitutes "using" for "fishing". I'd be very surprised if a ranger at a lake in East Texas would question a CHL's possession of a "snake pistol" while fishing in a Corps lake. Other places... take your chances.

Kevin

[Greybeard]

Quote: "I'd be very surprised if a ranger at a lake in East Texas would question a CHL's possession of a "snake pistol" while fishing in a Corps lake. Other places... take your chances."

I've got annual hunting permit on Corps lands around Lake Lewisville and Grapevine. This time of year it's "archery only" for feral hog. But in their booklet of rules and regs., handguns are specifically prohibited any time of year, so even with CHL, I don't care to be the test case - at the boat ramp or otherwise.

But, at Lake Ray Roberts - which is also Corp lands, only managed under Texas Parks and Wildlife, whose booklet clearly states that CHLs can carry (concealed) with the Annual Hunting Permit, I'm far more comfortable doing so.

[Liberty]

I've got annual hunting permit on Corps lands around Lake Lewisville and Grapevine. This time of year it's "archery only" for feral hog. But in their booklet of rules and regs., handguns are specifically prohibited any time of year...

Sounds like things could get pretty exciting at times

[Greybeard]

Quote: "Sounds like things could get pretty exciting at times"

Yep, I don't care for being up some of those creeks to stick a pig and having not much more for protection than 3 more arrows and the old tree-climbing boots. So at Lewisville and Grapevine, I pack a short 20 gauge pump in the old paddle boat used to get to places most hog hunters can't go. Even it though, to comply with their regs, can't be loaded with any shot bigger than 4s.

Had a guy in hunter ed. class a month or so ago who said he had an alligator come under his canoe on west end of Lake Lewisville last year. Worst I've seen so far at Grapevine is lots of water mocs, some 5' gar, one mountain lion and a few drunk fishermen ...

[1TallTXn]

As I understand it, nobody can legally carry on Federal property. This includes Corp parks, National Parks, etc.

I've carried numerous times at Corp Parks and never been questioned, but then again, I make sure it stays concealed.

[CHL/LEO]

As I understand it, nobody can legally carry on Federal property.

I'm not sure that's correct. I thought you could carry on BLM properties and National Forests land (not Parks).

How about the Post Office - is that considered federal property and can you carry there?

[frankie_the_yankee]

As I understand it, nobody can legally carry on Federal property.

I'm not sure that's correct. I thought you could carry on BLM properties and National Forests land (not Parks).

How about the Post Office - is that considered federal property and can you carry there?

National Forests are not federal property. There may be some federal property IN them, but the area designated as a "National Forest" can have both federal and private property.

Example" White Mountain National Forest in the Northeast is almost all either state or private property. Very little of it is federal.

National MONUMENTS **are** federal property. As far as I know, carrying is banned.

Carrying is banned in all federal buildings as well - unless specifically exempt by a rule.

I believe there is a rule for post offices that bans carrying. I know they all have non-compliant signs, but in their case the signs do not NEED to be 30.06 compliant, since they are deriving authority under federal law.

So if you were carrying in a post office here in TX, you COULD NOT be prosecuted for violating 30.06, but you WOULD run afoul of federal law.

I haven't read the exact federal rule in quite some time. Some people have argued that there are "gray areas" that might make CHL's exempt.

I don't risk it myself. With my luck, I'll be packing on the day they are testing out one of those new microwave "gun sniffers" and they'll tackle me and throw my butt in jail.

The Feds are noteable humorless about stuff like that. I leave mine in the truck. (Yhe parking lot is OK.)

[KBCraig]

As I understand it, nobody can legally carry on Federal property.

I'm not sure that's correct.

I'm sure it's not correct.

As I explained above, the law restricting carry in federal facilities only applies to buildings. Some agencies have used their rule-making authority to codify further restrictions in the CFR, which has the weight of law. But there are plenty of agencies that have not done so.

Kevin

[fiftycal]

Here is some info on the post office carry

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html

Yeah, yeah, nobody wants to be the test case. FWIW