Legality of 30:06 Signs

[snipr806@gmail.com]

I am curious as I have never heard this before. My extension or second location of my business is located inside a Flea Market (open to the public). After years and years of being out here I have noticed this weekend a miniature 12"x7" 30:06 sign posted on both sides of all entrance doors. I asked them where they got the signs (as that is what I do). In short they said they called the city who informed them since this is private property they do not have to have standard size signs.

Where they given false information and are the signs legal? Now, I have been "notified" so I will leave my weapon in the car from here on out.

[WildBill]

I am curious as I have never heard this before. My extension or second location of my business is located inside a Flea Market (open to the public). After years and years of being out here I have noticed this weekend a miniature 12"x7" 30:06 sign posted on both sides of all entrance doors. I asked them where they got the signs (as that is what I do). In short they said they called the city who informed them since this is private property they do not have to have standard size signs.

Where they given false information and are the signs legal? Now, I have been "notified" so I will leave my weapon in the car from here on out.

IANAL, but IMO the miniature signs do not meet the legal requirements. I don't know if you have been notified because I don't know exactly what was said and who said it.

BTW - Welcome to the forum.

[OCD]

They can have any size signs they want on private property but other people aren't breaking the law if they don't receive notice, and notice is defined clearly in the law.

[Piney]

I am curious as I have never heard this before. My extension or second location of my business is located inside a Flea Market (open to the public). After years and years of being out here I have noticed this weekend a miniature 12"x7" 30:06 sign posted on both sides of all entrance doors. I asked them where they got the signs (as that is what I do). In short they said they called the city who informed them since this is private property they do not have to have standard size signs.

Where they given false information and are the signs legal? Now, I have been "notified" so I will leave my weapon in the car from here on out.

The signs don't appear to meet the legal requirements, so could be considered unenforceable.
Regarding the potential verbal notice, if all you discussed was where they got the signs, a verbal notice under legal requirements may not have been met. Both written, posted and verbal notice all have quite specific requirements. Search here for discussions on what constitutes verbal notice, then you can determine if your conversation may have or did not meet the requirements.

[snipr806@gmail.com]

I say notified because A) I read/saw the signs that are posted on all entrances outside B) Because we discussed 30:06 signs she has hanging up. Where they came from and that they weren't to code. The manager said she called the city and that is what they told her however, I was not told or given notice by her or any other employee I could not carry verbally.

So basically the census is because the signs are not to code size wise, you can walk past them? I would imagine "notice" would be verbal or signage.

[GWE Chally]

I say notified because A) I read/saw the signs that are posted on all entrances outside B) Because we discussed 30:06 signs she has hanging up. Where they came from and that they weren't to code. The manager said she called the city and that is what they told her however, I was not told or given notice by her or any other employee I could not carry verbally.

So basically the census is because the signs are not to code size wise, you can walk past them? I would imagine "notice" would be verbal or signage.

The city mis-informed her. Private property has little to do with the legality of the signage. 1" letters in contrasting colors, is a pretty clear definition, IMHO.

If she verbalized to you that she does not, in fact, want CHLers to carry there, then I would consider that effective notice. (I would probably try to get her to change her mind though.)

[Vol Texan]

I say notified because A) I read/saw the signs that are posted on all entrances outside B) Because we discussed 30:06 signs she has hanging up. Where they came from and that they weren't to code. The manager said she called the city and that is what they told her however, I was not told or given notice by her or any other employee I could not carry verbally.

snipr, Welcome to the forum. I'm still quite the newbie here myself, and I'll defer to the wiser ones as to all the legal stuff, but please let me share with you some of what I've learned by lurking here for over a year:

We can't carry if the property owner (or a proper representative, such as (but not limited to) a manager at the location) has asked us not to carry. We have not broken the law until they ask us, but once they have, we have to comply. Non compliance is breaking the law.

There are only two ways to ask us: (a) verbally, and (b) with a properly displayed 30.06 sign.

With regards to discussing the sign with the property owner - the general consensus on here is that we NEVER do so. We take the time and $$ to learn the legal ins-and-outs of when we can and cannot carry. If they want to block us, that is their right, but it's not up to us to educate them on how to do it properly - if they've done it wrong. We are comfortable knowing we've taken the steps to protect ourselves and our families, and they are comfortable thinking that we aren't carrying. Let them live in their dreamworld, and we'll carry on doing what we do. We keep concealed, as required by law, and they'll never know that their improper signage has had no effect on those of us who have been properly trained.

Now, there are other ways to let us know we can't carry (e.g. 51% signs), but I'm only trying to cover the 'they just don't want me to carry here' topic. I'll leave the rest for another discussion.

Again, welcome to the forum from another newbie. Keep reading...these guys and ladies will teach us a lot!

[tacticool]

There are only two ways to ask us: (a) verbally, and (b) with a properly displayed 30.06 sign.

(a) I think you mean orally, and
(c) a document that contains the 30.06 language does not need 1" letters and doesn't need to be bilingual. Documents include a lease, handbook, admission ticket, etc.

[MoJo]

The best thing to do in such a situation is keep quiet. Yes the sign is invalid but since your conversion was about the signs with the manager this could be interpreted as effective notice.

Here's the law on the matter:

§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder
with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed
handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

[Vol Texan]

(c) a document that contains the 30.06 language does not need 1" letters and doesn't need to be bilingual. Documents include a lease, handbook, admission ticket, etc.

Thanks for the clarification. I knew about the handbook (but in my mind I was thinking employee handbook, so I left it out of this example). This is the first I'd heard about the admission ticket example.

[snipr806@gmail.com]

OK for sake of conversation let's say there was no discussion w/ anyone. If there is a 30:06 sign posted that is smaller then 1" letters, a CHL holder can ignore said sign and walk in anyways?

[tacticool]

Notice is defined in the law. If you didn't receive notice, you're not trespassing.

[Keith B]

OK for sake of conversation let's say there was no discussion w/ anyone. If there is a 30:06 sign posted that is smaller then 1" letters, a CHL holder can ignore said sign and walk in anyways?

First off, welcome to the forum.

The signs do not meet the legal letter of the law. However, that does not mean that if found carrying you would not be arrested and charged and then they let the judge figure it out. It boils down to the fact that they are wanting to post the flea market and prevent legal carry there, they are just not quite making it truly illegal.

So, while you could more than likely beat the fact the sign was not legal in court, you may still have to deal with the hassle in between.

[snipr806@gmail.com]

That's exactly what I was figuring on. Thank you to all for help and all the welcomes!!!

OK for sake of conversation let's say there was no discussion w/ anyone. If there is a 30:06 sign posted that is smaller then 1" letters, a CHL holder can ignore said sign and walk in anyways?

First off, welcome to the forum.

The signs do not meet the legal letter of the law. However, that does not mean that if found carrying you would not be arrested and charged and then they let the judge figure it out. It boils down to the fact that they are wanting to post the flea market and prevent legal carry there, they are just not quite making it truly illegal.

So, while you could more than likely beat the fact the sign was not legal in court, you may still have to deal with the hassle in between.

[scottmeador]

"...My extension or second location of my business is located inside a Flea Market (open to the public)..."

Where is the flea market located? I'll make make sure not to visit there.