Active shooter scenario

[sixhcp]

In light of the recent shootings, as a CHL holder I have been thinking about scenarios where I might encounter an active shooter. Most of us don't think beyond actually putting the bad guy down. But the real question then becomes:

I don't want to get accidentally shot by law enforcement who have no idea who the shooter is. To them I'm just a guy with a gun.
What should I do when:

A. The bad guy is down and the shooting has stopped - LEO not yet arrived
and
B. Bad guy still on the loose - LEO arrives.

[gigag04]

A. Scan for additional threats, front and rear, re-holster, call for help, render aid

B. Holster, seek cover, keep hands visible in non-threatening manner, await further instructions

Keep in mind, someone may have seen you with a gun, and relayed that the LEOs. Big likelihood you will be detained and your weapon taken as evidence, especially if you pulled it.

[Heartland Patriot]

A. Scan for additional threats, front and rear, re-holster, call for help, render aid

B. Holster, seek cover, keep hands visible in non-threatening manner, await further instructions

Keep in mind, someone may have seen you with a gun, and relayed that the LEOs. Big likelihood you will be detained and your weapon taken as evidence, especially if you pulled it.

I always hear things to the effect of "the cops believe whoever calls them first"...from your perspective, as an LEO, any truth to that? No matter what happens, though, I would call 911 myself.

[gigag04]

A. Scan for additional threats, front and rear, re-holster, call for help, render aid

B. Holster, seek cover, keep hands visible in non-threatening manner, await further instructions

Keep in mind, someone may have seen you with a gun, and relayed that the LEOs. Big likelihood you will be detained and your weapon taken as evidence, especially if you pulled it.

I always hear things to the effect of "the cops believe whoever calls them first"...from your perspective, as an LEO, any truth to that? No matter what happens, though, I would call 911 myself.

In an active shooter scenario, there will be so much information coming across the radio -

You'll have dispatch relaying what's coming in the lines, officers forming impromptu entry teams, secondary teams forming and coming in, and command showing up and establishing an incident command post.

In a more normal scenario, we will arrive on scene with whatever information we have been given. However, we often find that the situation on scene is not what was originally described to us.

[Heartland Patriot]

A. Scan for additional threats, front and rear, re-holster, call for help, render aid

B. Holster, seek cover, keep hands visible in non-threatening manner, await further instructions

Keep in mind, someone may have seen you with a gun, and relayed that the LEOs. Big likelihood you will be detained and your weapon taken as evidence, especially if you pulled it.

I always hear things to the effect of "the cops believe whoever calls them first"...from your perspective, as an LEO, any truth to that? No matter what happens, though, I would call 911 myself.

In an active shooter scenario, there will be so much information coming across the radio -

You'll have dispatch relaying what's coming in the lines, officers forming impromptu entry teams, secondary teams forming and coming in, and command showing up and establishing an incident command post.

In a more normal scenario, we will arrive on scene with whatever information we have been given. However, we often find that the situation on scene is not what was originally described to us.

So, whatever information may have been phoned in notwithstanding, the LEOs on the scene would form the own assessment, in general, based on circumstances and what presents itself. That certainly seems to make a lot more sense then just taking any information phoned in as 100% fact.

[gigag04]

Yeah. One recent example:

911: Hello
Lady: My husband hit me
911: Ok police are on the way

I arrive, cape and all.

Me: What happened.
Lady: Husband hit me
Me: Why are you covered in blood
Lady: it's his blood - I cut him with a knife
Me: Because he hit you?
Lady: no, because he is cheating on me. I cut him, then he punched me to make me stop cutting him.

Yes. This happens all the time.

[sixhcp]

Thanks gigag. I expect that should I ever be faced with one of these scenarios my mind will be focused until the shooting stops and the adrenaline kicks in. It helps to have thought this through before-hand.

[mikedude]

In light of the recent shootings, as a CHL holder I have been thinking about scenarios where I might encounter an active shooter. Most of us don't think beyond actually putting the bad guy down. But the real question then becomes:

I don't want to get accidentally shot by law enforcement who have no idea who the shooter is. To them I'm just a guy with a gun.
What should I do when:

A. The bad guy is down and the shooting has stopped - LEO not yet arrived
and
B. Bad guy still on the loose - LEO arrives.

My 2 cents. I have worked 2 active school shootings with 17 shot in one incident, 5 the second before an officer shot the suspect. When we took that suspect into custody, he was alive. When we respond, the mindset is to go in and immediately STOP the threat. All plain clothed officers know this as well. Subject with gun = threat. Compliance is very crucial immediately if you are armed. With a down suspect, you have to consider multiple suspects. Usually there are so many 911 calls misinformation is out about multiple supsects, ect. If the suspect is obviously deceased you could consider holstering and having hands up ready for LE instructions. Before you do this if you were involved in this take down, MAKE SURE he is out of commission. Suspects play dead as well, pass out temporarily from shock, ect. As an LEO, I would prefer to hold him at gun point until he can be handcuffed. We handcuff all suspects immediately after a shooting (even deceased ones as that is standard procedure), but would also have to consider all this as I don't want to be shot with friendly fire or some amped up citizen with a gun. Note this: You WILL be taken down at gun point as everybody is during the incident. Do what you are told. It will get sorted out. With active shooter still moving, you take the risk if you go after him. If you do, adhear to instructions again above. If you are with your family, my suggestion is find a position of safety and protect them. Don't be the hero that gets killed IFO your kids. If I am with my family, their safety is my priority. I covered officers once in a mall shooting while I was off duty. It had been a hostage situation. I did not pull my gun until I made sure they knew I was a LEO. Then I assisted in the entry to see if suspect was still alive he wasn't. (officer shot him)

To go after or not is your decision. I am NO expert, but have been in these situations before. One thing to also consider is that NOBODY knows if they can really pull a trigger until they are faced with that decision and they do. It is horrific, and something I do not wish on anybody, however if it gets you home to your family then do what you have to do.

[dac1842]

One thing to also consider is that NOBODY knows if they can really pull a trigger until they are faced with that decision and they do. It is horrific, and something I do not wish on anybody, however if it gets you home to your family then do what you have to do.

Nice to see someone else gets it. Guess those that have been there done that do. My fear is not how to avoid getting shot by LE. I was one, I can handle them, I know how to react to that. As soon as they start to show up put the weapon down and hands up. You will get handcuffed until things get sorted out.

My fear is other CHL holders who may not have the vision to see the whole picture, or missed the part where the bad guy was being bad before I took him/her down and come up with me holding a BG at gun point, and want to be a hero and then start shooting at me. I often have thought of how to handle a shooting in public place where other CHL holders might be present.
I feel that the safest approach is in the event of an active shooter in a public place is to protect myself and others in my immediate area. Keep my weapon holstered until needed to avoid someone mistaking me for a gunman. just my thoughts.

[Beiruty]

Gun fights start quickly and end quickly in mere seconds. That is blinding fast. No one will notice what happened who was shooting who. Don't chicken out and engage if you have the upper hand.

[jimlongley]

Yeah. One recent example:

911: Hello
Lady: My husband hit me
911: Ok police are on the way

I arrive, cape and all.

Me: What happened.
Lady: Husband hit me
Me: Why are you covered in blood
Lady: it's his blood - I cut him with a knife
Me: Because he hit you?
Lady: no, because he is cheating on me. I cut him, then he punched me to make me stop cutting him.

Yes. This happens all the time.

The example I used to use in my Pistol Permit classes in NY State:

You hear a disturbance, notice a man running from a house, closely pursued by a woman hysterically screaming "YOU KILLED HIM, YOU MURDERER", "HELP POLICE", "STOP HIM, HE'S A MURDERER" and so on.

Being a conscientious and concerned citizen and always keeping in mind Kitty Genovese, you respond by drawing your carry gun and chasing him down, dispatch the evil hearted miscreant with one well aimed shot to the head.

And then the woman assaults you screaming "WHY DID YOU KILL MY HUSBAND . . . "

And it turns out that the original todo was because he was cleaning the goldfish bowl and left poor Goldie sitting too long without water and it died. Or some such scenario.

In my experience, the dispatchers rarely tell the person on the phone exactly what is happening, partly because all they know is second hand anyway, and because they are in a mode of calming down and controlling the person on the phone, so I wouldn't expect a step by step from dispatch saying they are lining up outside or some such. The recent murder of volunteer firefighters in Webster NY serves as an example.

Although the dispatcher knew the firefighter (who was also a dispatcher) and he was pleading for information and advice, he got very little and none of what he was asking for.

Having spent 17 years as a volunteer fireman in upstate NY that one hit close to home.

[dac1842]

I have 15 years on the streets as a LEO and 3 years of SWAT. I wasn't referring to chickening out, I was referring to others not seeing or being able to digest all that happened and being overzealous in their response. A police officer is trained to look at the whole scene as he/she enters. CHL holders not so much. I have and will respond to a shooting in the manner needed to protect myself and others. But another thing people have to remember it that sometimes it is better to be a good witness.

[thatguy]

One thing to also consider is that NOBODY knows if they can really pull a trigger until they are faced with that decision and they do. It is horrific, and something I do not wish on anybody, however if it gets you home to your family then do what you have to do.

Nice to see someone else gets it. Guess those that have been there done that do. My fear is not how to avoid getting shot by LE. I was one, I can handle them, I know how to react to that. As soon as they start to show up put the weapon down and hands up. You will get handcuffed until things get sorted out.

My fear is other CHL holders who may not have the vision to see the whole picture, or missed the part where the bad guy was being bad before I took him/her down and come up with me holding a BG at gun point, and want to be a hero and then start shooting at me. I often have thought of how to handle a shooting in public place where other CHL holders might be present.
I feel that the safest approach is in the event of an active shooter in a public place is to protect myself and others in my immediate area. Keep my weapon holstered until needed to avoid someone mistaking me for a gunman. just my thoughts.

My two cents,

My family comes first every time.

Gather as much information about the whole picture as possible.

My gun stays holstered until I have decided to shoot someone.

Pray to God for the courage to do what has to be done and guide me...I am mortified at the possibility of harming innocent third parties.

I understand and appreciate that by involving myself in an active shooter situation the likelihood of my survivability is about 50 percent...IMHO

[The Annoyed Man]

Yeah. One recent example:

911: Hello
Lady: My husband hit me
911: Ok police are on the way

I arrive, cape and all.

Me: What happened.
Lady: Husband hit me
Me: Why are you covered in blood
Lady: it's his blood - I cut him with a knife
Me: Because he hit you?
Lady: no, because he is cheating on me. I cut him, then he punched me to make me stop cutting him.
You give 'em the full monty? Does the cape have ATM on it, or just a simple "S?" I kid, I kid. I just thought the cape bit was funny.
Yes. This happens all the time.

[The Annoyed Man]

Yeah. One recent example:

911: Hello
Lady: My husband hit me
911: Ok police are on the way

I arrive, cape and all.

Me: What happened.
Lady: Husband hit me
Me: Why are you covered in blood
Lady: it's his blood - I cut him with a knife
Me: Because he hit you?
Lady: no, because he is cheating on me. I cut him, then he punched me to make me stop cutting him.

Yes. This happens all the time.

You give 'em the full monty? Does the cape have ATM on it, or just a simple "S?" I kid, I kid. I just thought the cape bit was funny.