Academy Sending A Certified Letter

[esxmarkc]

Never had an issue with the 4473. However, when I was stationed in California, a sporting goods store where I had purchased a Remington Model 870 called and told me I would have to return the shotgun to them because of a paperwork issue. In California, you have to be a resident of the state to purchase any firearm there...I had a Texas DL. They made copies of my military ID, Texas DL, and documents to prove that I was living in and stationed in California, which is in accordance with California law. I had purchased other firearms through other FFLs in California and never had a problem. Turns out that one of the California State forms was filled out incorrectly (by THEM). And that made the whole transaction null and void. They wanted me to bring it back, but I made them come to my house and get the thing as it was an hour drive to the store where I bought it. They refunded my money and gave me a $25 gift card. They said they actually changed company policy because of what happened to me (by policy I took it to mean how they train their employees) so that any other military folks wouldn't have problems. They were very apologetic and all, but it sure was annoying to the nth degree.

Did you also hand over the 6" of barrel and stock that you had already sawed off both ends

[03Lightningrocks]

You folks should experience the thrill of paper work at a place in Plano known as bullet trap. They are more than ridiculous. I figure they must have caught some grief from the storm troopers at some point. I kid you not, they made me spell out Junior at the end of my name instead of allowing me to put the normally considered appropriate Jr. Then they made me write Texas in the state box instead of Tx. There is not enough room for all this in the box and they insisted I make it all fit in the box. It was getting to a point of silly before I was done. I am not the only one to suffer their wrath either. I have several friends who were put through all kinds of hoops filling out that form at bullet trap. Like I said, I bet they have been roasted a time or two.

That's interesting. I've bought a couple of guns from the Bullet Trap and other than their slightly high prices, I've never had a problem.
The first one I bought was before I had my CHL.

I will tell you something even funnier. I only put up with the silliness because the prices were better than other places.

I will be honest with you. I question your claim that they did not make you do the exact same stuff I and every other person I know had to do. Two exceptions. You made your purchase many years ago or you made it in the past few weeks and they drastically changed policy.

Otherwise, I find you questioning my post as if I made it up more than insulting.

[PBratton]

You folks should experience the thrill of paper work at a place in Plano known as bullet trap. They are more than ridiculous. I figure they must have caught some grief from the storm troopers at some point. I kid you not, they made me spell out Junior at the end of my name instead of allowing me to put the normally considered appropriate Jr. Then they made me write Texas in the state box instead of Tx. There is not enough room for all this in the box and they insisted I make it all fit in the box. It was getting to a point of silly before I was done. I am not the only one to suffer their wrath either. I have several friends who were put through all kinds of hoops filling out that form at bullet trap. Like I said, I bet they have been roasted a time or two.

That stuff was no longer required by the ATF _over 10 years ago_. If you have somebody requiring it now, you can be CERTAIN they are not current on ATF guidance/regs, and are more likely to screw things up than not. Run away from places that are like this, FAR away.

I have occasionally discovered errors in 4473s that need to be corrected by the customer. Unfortunately, you can't send a 4473 to a customer, so they need to come in. Since I don't carry inventory, I usually offer a free transfer in the future. I've only had to do it a couple times though, and not in the last year or so.

That was my exact path when I had to do that a couple years ago.

[Mel]

You folks should experience the thrill of paper work at a place in Plano known as bullet trap. They are more than ridiculous. I figure they must have caught some grief from the storm troopers at some point. I kid you not, they made me spell out Junior at the end of my name instead of allowing me to put the normally considered appropriate Jr. Then they made me write Texas in the state box instead of Tx. There is not enough room for all this in the box and they insisted I make it all fit in the box. It was getting to a point of silly before I was done. I am not the only one to suffer their wrath either. I have several friends who were put through all kinds of hoops filling out that form at bullet trap. Like I said, I bet they have been roasted a time or two.

That's interesting. I've bought a couple of guns from the Bullet Trap and other than their slightly high prices, I've never had a problem.
The first one I bought was before I had my CHL.

I will tell you something even funnier. I only put up with the silliness because the prices were better than other places.
I will be honest with you. I question your claim that they did not make you do the exact same stuff I and every other person I know had to do. Two exceptions. You made your purchase many years ago or you made it in the past few weeks and they drastically changed policy.
Otherwise, I find you questioning my post as if I made it up more than insulting.

Well excuse me for insulting you. I assure you that was not my intention. I was in no way questioning your post. I was simply stating my experience.
My first purchase was 2010 and the second was 2011.
I apologize profusely. PLEASE forgive me. It will not happen again.

[03Lightningrocks]

You folks should experience the thrill of paper work at a place in Plano known as bullet trap. They are more than ridiculous. I figure they must have caught some grief from the storm troopers at some point. I kid you not, they made me spell out Junior at the end of my name instead of allowing me to put the normally considered appropriate Jr. Then they made me write Texas in the state box instead of Tx. There is not enough room for all this in the box and they insisted I make it all fit in the box. It was getting to a point of silly before I was done. I am not the only one to suffer their wrath either. I have several friends who were put through all kinds of hoops filling out that form at bullet trap. Like I said, I bet they have been roasted a time or two.

That's interesting. I've bought a couple of guns from the Bullet Trap and other than their slightly high prices, I've never had a problem.
The first one I bought was before I had my CHL.

I will tell you something even funnier. I only put up with the silliness because the prices were better than other places.
I will be honest with you. I question your claim that they did not make you do the exact same stuff I and every other person I know had to do. Two exceptions. You made your purchase many years ago or you made it in the past few weeks and they drastically changed policy.
Otherwise, I find you questioning my post as if I made it up more than insulting.

Well excuse me for insulting you. I assure you that was not my intention. I was in no way questioning your post. I was simply stating my experience.
My first purchase was 2010 and the second was 2011.
I apologize profusely. PLEASE forgive me. It will not happen again.

Well how can I refuse to accept?

A friend of mine that is on this forum read my post and called me. He told me he purchased a weapon from them just 4-6 weeks ago and said they put him through the same ringer as I was put through. All the way down to making him spell out the complete name of the city and state he was born in. I think he told me he was born in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. Try writing that out in the little box. He said they almost made him fill the form out over again because his penmanship did not meet their guidelines. Crazy stuff. They have a policy at BT that requires three people look at your form before approval. One of whom is some mystery feller who resides in the shadows of the "back room". I can tell you that everything they made me and the several others do is "store policy" and failure to force all issues will get the employee terminated. What makes it funny with me is that I have put HVAC systems in for a couple of their employees and gave them the "brother discount". It didn't seem to make my life easier. It just forced them to apologize during the entire process.

I guess you got lucky and Dave was out that day...LOL.

[03Lightningrocks]

More on topic here. When Doug called me I made the comment that I would simply refuse to go back. He didn't out right say it but I got the impression he believed as I do that it is their problem at that point. I am certainly not an expert on FFL laws and regulations. Am I wrong in believing that it is not my issue once the process is completed and I am gone? I can see where they may be in hot water but in a case like the OP had, not completely checking a box??? If it was obvious the check was headed that way I cannot possibly envision the ATF making a big whoop over it. I wonder if maybe some internal auditor was being overly cautious at Carlson's expense and inconvenience. The least they could have done is show some appreciation with a gift card or something.

[OldCannon]

More on topic here. When Doug called me I made the comment that I would simply refuse to go back. He didn't out right say it but I got the impression he believed as I do that it is their problem at that point. I am certainly not an expert on FFL laws and regulations. Am I wrong in believing that it is not my issue once the process is completed and I am gone? I can see where they may be in hot water but in a case like the OP had, not completely checking a box??? If it was obvious the check was headed that way I cannot possibly envision the ATF making a big whoop over it. I wonder if maybe some internal auditor was being overly cautious at Carlson's expense and inconvenience. The least they could have done is show some appreciation with a gift card or something.

Generally speaking, you have no obligation so long as you were truthful when you filled out the 4473. The ATF does ask dealers to try to get customers to correct/include missing information, but once the gun leaves in your hands, it's the dealer that's in hot water if something's wrong. Think about it: From the ATF's point of view, dealers only have two jobs:
1) Record "Acquisition and Didposition" of all firearms.
2) Make sure 4473 forms are correct and complete.

it's entirely your call whether to go back. Academy should have at least offered a $10 gift card or something.

[bizarrenormality]

What's the process for correcting a 4473? I know for other documents, like mortgage applications, I could not simply go back and change information after the documents were signed.

[carlson1]

What's the process for correcting a 4473? I know for other documents, like mortgage applications, I could not simply go back and change information after the documents were signed.

I made the check mark in the middle of the box and initialed it. It wa s a big deal. Waste of my time.

[PBratton]

What's the process for correcting a 4473? I know for other documents, like mortgage applications, I could not simply go back and change information after the documents were signed.

I was instructed to not make any changes to the original 4473 but to have the Customer correct a copy and attach them together file the file...

It is entirely on the dealer to show that an effort was made to have the Customer come in to make the corrections required. Mail, Certified Mail, emails...

I did have free transfer certificates ready for each Customer that made time to come by.

[LAYGO]

You folks should experience the thrill of paper work at a place in Plano known as bullet trap. They are more than ridiculous. I figure they must have caught some grief from the storm troopers at some point. I kid you not, they made me spell out Junior at the end of my name instead of allowing me to put the normally considered appropriate Jr. Then they made me write Texas in the state box instead of Tx. There is not enough room for all this in the box and they insisted I make it all fit in the box. It was getting to a point of silly before I was done. I am not the only one to suffer their wrath either. I have several friends who were put through all kinds of hoops filling out that form at bullet trap. Like I said, I bet they have been roasted a time or two.

That stuff was no longer required by the ATF _over 10 years ago_. If you have somebody requiring it now, you can be CERTAIN they are not current on ATF guidance/regs, and are more likely to screw things up than not. Run away from places that are like this, FAR away.

I have occasionally discovered errors in 4473s that need to be corrected by the customer. Unfortunately, you can't send a 4473 to a customer, so they need to come in. Since I don't carry inventory, I usually offer a free transfer in the future. I've only had to do it a couple times though, and not in the last year or so.

I've purchased 3 firearms over the last 3 years from them (2 M&Ps (1 new 45c, 1 used but unfired 40mid, $150 off new) & an AR15, (again, used, but nearly unfired, $100 off new)). The way they go thru the paperwork is . . . firm. I never had the impression that they weren't current about how paperwork needs to be filled out. They recently changed ownership as well, but still do the paperwork the same (bought the AR15 there about 3wks ago).

[OldCannon]

That stuff was no longer required by the ATF _over 10 years ago_. If you have somebody requiring it now, you can be CERTAIN they are not current on ATF guidance/regs, and are more likely to screw things up than not. Run away from places that are like this, FAR away.

I have occasionally discovered errors in 4473s that need to be corrected by the customer. Unfortunately, you can't send a 4473 to a customer, so they need to come in. Since I don't carry inventory, I usually offer a free transfer in the future. I've only had to do it a couple times though, and not in the last year or so.

I've purchased 3 firearms over the last 3 years from them (2 M&Ps (1 new 45c, 1 used but unfired 40mid, $150 off new) & an AR15, (again, used, but nearly unfired, $100 off new)). The way they go thru the paperwork is . . . firm. I never had the impression that they weren't current about how paperwork needs to be filled out. They recently changed ownership as well, but still do the paperwork the same (bought the AR15 there about 3wks ago).

They don't read ATF guidance then. As I've said before, dealers like this can actually _increase_ your chances of something going wrong. Use them with caution.

From the November 2008 Newsletter from the ATF (http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/n ... 008-11.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;):

ABBREVIATIONS

ATF has received a number of inquiries regarding the use of abbreviations on ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record) and in the acquisition and disposition (A&D) book entries. As a general rule, abbreviations should be avoided on Form 4473 or in entries in the A&D book. This is to avoid confusion or prevent providing an incomplete record. However, there are a number of abbreviations that are allowed.

The use of standard postal State abbreviations (i.e. AK, DE, VA, TX, etc.) or an easily and readily recognized abbreviation such as Mass. for Massachusetts is permitted. Additionally, the use of D.L. to denote “driver’s license” and O.P. to denote “operator’s permit” are also permitted. In general, if an abbreviation is legible and readily understood it would be acceptable. However, if the abbreviation is not understood, you will be told not to utilize it and continued use will result in either the issuance of a report of violation for the appropriate recordkeeping provision or other appropriate action.

As a rule of thumb, if you are unsure as to whether or not an abbreviation is readily understood, the abbreviation should not be used. Please keep in mind the importance of these records to law enforcement and the need to understand the abbreviations if you go out of business. It is important that the entries are written legibly and completely so everyone can understand them. ATF thanks you for your efforts.

This is why the ATF is perfectly content with things like "TX CHL" instead of "Texas Concealed Handgun Permit" on a 4473, or "Ruger" in your A&D book instead of "Sturm, Ruger & Co, Inc."

P.S. - Based on their draconian insistence on holding on to guidance from the Clinton era, I do not think waving this guidance in front of them is going to change their procedures. Some folks just like doing things one way because, "That's the way we do it."

[Callaway]

Happened to me. I'm left handed and they said my check marked across into the 'yes' I'm a felon part even after I corrected/initialed it as instructed by the gun counter guy. It was a waste of time to go back and they should of checked to make sure it was acceptable before I left the first time.

The manager said they sent out over 3,000 letters in the past 3 months for just his location in Austin. Sounds like employees need to be re-trained.

Anywho, that was my experience.

[03Lightningrocks]

That stuff was no longer required by the ATF _over 10 years ago_. If you have somebody requiring it now, you can be CERTAIN they are not current on ATF guidance/regs, and are more likely to screw things up than not. Run away from places that are like this, FAR away.

I have occasionally discovered errors in 4473s that need to be corrected by the customer. Unfortunately, you can't send a 4473 to a customer, so they need to come in. Since I don't carry inventory, I usually offer a free transfer in the future. I've only had to do it a couple times though, and not in the last year or so.

I've purchased 3 firearms over the last 3 years from them (2 M&Ps (1 new 45c, 1 used but unfired 40mid, $150 off new) & an AR15, (again, used, but nearly unfired, $100 off new)). The way they go thru the paperwork is . . . firm. I never had the impression that they weren't current about how paperwork needs to be filled out. They recently changed ownership as well, but still do the paperwork the same (bought the AR15 there about 3wks ago).

They don't read ATF guidance then. As I've said before, dealers like this can actually _increase_ your chances of something going wrong. Use them with caution.

From the November 2008 Newsletter from the ATF (http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/n ... 008-11.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;):

ABBREVIATIONS

ATF has received a number of inquiries regarding the use of abbreviations on ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record) and in the acquisition and disposition (A&D) book entries. As a general rule, abbreviations should be avoided on Form 4473 or in entries in the A&D book. This is to avoid confusion or prevent providing an incomplete record. However, there are a number of abbreviations that are allowed.

The use of standard postal State abbreviations (i.e. AK, DE, VA, TX, etc.) or an easily and readily recognized abbreviation such as Mass. for Massachusetts is permitted. Additionally, the use of D.L. to denote “driver’s license” and O.P. to denote “operator’s permit” are also permitted. In general, if an abbreviation is legible and readily understood it would be acceptable. However, if the abbreviation is not understood, you will be told not to utilize it and continued use will result in either the issuance of a report of violation for the appropriate recordkeeping provision or other appropriate action.

As a rule of thumb, if you are unsure as to whether or not an abbreviation is readily understood, the abbreviation should not be used. Please keep in mind the importance of these records to law enforcement and the need to understand the abbreviations if you go out of business. It is important that the entries are written legibly and completely so everyone can understand them. ATF thanks you for your efforts.

This is why the ATF is perfectly content with things like "TX CHL" instead of "Texas Concealed Handgun Permit" on a 4473, or "Ruger" in your A&D book instead of "Sturm, Ruger & Co, Inc."

P.S. - Based on their draconian insistence on holding on to guidance from the Clinton era, I do not think waving this guidance in front of them is going to change their procedures. Some folks just like doing things one way because, "That's the way we do it."

Exactly!! And thank you!

Take note of how something I saw as ridiculous to the point of almost being harassment, others saw as an honor and maybe even a priviledge.

[Cedar Park Dad]

What happens if you tell them to get stuffed, or just don't reply?