New improper government 30.06 fight

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Dave2
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#31

Post by Dave2 »

srothstein wrote:
Dave2 wrote:
cb1000rider wrote:Do you really expect all LEOs to know when 30.06 laws apply and when they don't?
Yep.
cb1000rider wrote:Now take into consideration the average educational requirements for an entry level LEO job... Still expect them to know?
Well, hold on, let me think about it... Yep.
cb1000rider wrote:We know it because we're passionate about it, studied it, and re-studied it.. Yet you still see questions posted, myself included.
We're not tasked with arresting people who violate the law.

Dave2,

I think you might be expecting too much. Remember that where people can carry is not like theft. Theft is something everyone is taught right or wrong on from childhood. Guns are not that way. Cops get some training in the law, but not nearly enough. I would estimate that the average officer gets 40 hours in the academy to cover the whole Penal Code and guns is not a big portion of that time. Their biannual retraining on the changes is probably only 8 hours (state only requires 4) and that covers the Penal Code, Code of Criminal Procedure, Transportation Code, Education Code, and all criminal court case rulings.

So, expecting officers to know the laws in detail is, IMO, asking too much.
Well, you and I are required to know the laws in detail, so why not the people who get paid to enforce the law? If the primary objection is that their training is too short to include it all, then the solution is to spend more time in training, reduce the complexity and number of criminal/traffic laws, or both.
srothstein wrote: I find it reasonable to expect them to know the basics and to have a copy of the law with them to look up the right answer. In a case like this, I would expect an officer to know that a 30.06 sign is required but not know who it applies to or where and not necessarily know the exact wording and size requirements. I would not be too upset with an officer who stopped me for violating the law if someone complained about me ignoring the 30.06 sign if he cuffed me and put me in the car as long as he stopped and read the law before we went any further. I do require that any officer should treat me with respect and courtesy, even if he is arresting me, but that is a different subject.

I think my position is a reasonable compromise between freedom and justice and reality. It would be nice if every officer knew the law and all relevant court cases, but that is just not possible. This is not due to the low qualities of the officers, but due to what would be required (lawyers get three years of schooling and then take lots of time to research their cases so imagine what a cop would require). But it is very realistic to expect the officer to know that he is not an expert and to look up the law before going anywhere. Gould's makes a copy of all of the relevant laws for officers that will fit in their briefcase (I know this because I still have my old copies) and even makes a searchable copy that will run on any Windows based laptop installed in the car with them (again, I have my old copies).

Do you think this might be a more reasonable expectation?
I think it's a perfectly reasonable interim solution, until the police departments finish revising their training programs (although I agree with MasterOfNone and mojo84 about the cuffing bit, as long as the person is being cooperative). If a laptop is in every patrol car, I see no reason for them to ever not have a copy of the law accessible.
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cb1000rider
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#32

Post by cb1000rider »

mojo84 wrote: I also don't believe cops appreciate the psychological aspect of cuffing someone, especially a law abiding citizen that hasn't done anything wrong. I've never been cuffed but I can imagine how I would feel if I was and put in the back of a patrol car when I hadn't done anything wrong or anything to warrant it. I can tell you it would not be appreciated and it would raise my ire considerably. Now, if I were acting like an idiot or in a threatening way, cuff me and put me in the car. That's completely different.
I have no issue with being cuffed and stuffed, especially if it's a LEO that is taking the time to make a situation safe while he/she figures out the fine details of the law. The cuffed/stuffed, while inconvenient, and perhaps a bit intimidating, has no long term repercussions. No objection as long as the stop is legal and there is some level of suspicion there.

I have a big issue with being arrested, especially if the law doesn't support the legal reasons for that arrest. That arrest, even if dropped, is likely to cost quite a bit of money (bail/bond/towing/recovery/legal retainer) and will forever exist on the permanent legal record and may give employers a reason to think twice, IE "have you ever been arrested?"..

As my expectations are such that I don't expect LEOs to know ever fine detail of the law and I don't trust a LEO that has had a bad day to not arrest to solve the problem at hand, I go out of my way to avoid a situation where my expectations might be tested.
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#33

Post by suthdj »

Remember the GZ trial they used his college text books to determine what he was trained on. If a LEO is trained on CHL laws I can see no excuse for not knowing however if they are not then they should conduct themselves accordingly an not let the ego rule the day.
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Dave2
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#34

Post by Dave2 »

cb1000rider wrote:
mojo84 wrote: I also don't believe cops appreciate the psychological aspect of cuffing someone, especially a law abiding citizen that hasn't done anything wrong. I've never been cuffed but I can imagine how I would feel if I was and put in the back of a patrol car when I hadn't done anything wrong or anything to warrant it. I can tell you it would not be appreciated and it would raise my ire considerably. Now, if I were acting like an idiot or in a threatening way, cuff me and put me in the car. That's completely different.
I have no issue with being cuffed and stuffed, especially if it's a LEO that is taking the time to make a situation safe while he/she figures out the fine details of the law. The cuffed/stuffed, while inconvenient, and perhaps a bit intimidating, has no long term repercussions. No objection as long as the stop is legal and there is some level of suspicion there.
To clarify my earlier statement, I'd prefer it if they merely disarmed me (well, I'd really prefer it if they didn't feel threatened enough to even do that, but let's be realistic here) and let me find a comfy place to wait for them to figure out what's going on. But as a practical matter, the cops need to be able to "cuff 'n' stuff" someone for a bit while they clear up any confusion, but I think it should be at the officer's discretion rather than policy (and that might already be the case, I don't know).
cb1000rider wrote:I have a big issue with being arrested, especially if the law doesn't support the legal reasons for that arrest. That arrest, even if dropped, is likely to cost quite a bit of money (bail/bond/towing/recovery/legal retainer) and will forever exist on the permanent legal record and may give employers a reason to think twice, IE "have you ever been arrested?"..
:iagree: It also costs you time, and clogs up the legal system.
I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, nor should anything I say be taken as legal advice. If it is important that any information be accurate, do not use me as the only source.

Dave2
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#35

Post by Dave2 »

suthdj wrote:Remember the GZ trial they used his college text books to determine what he was trained on. If a LEO is trained on CHL laws I can see no excuse for not knowing however if they are not then they should conduct themselves accordingly an not let the ego rule the day.
Oh! That's an interesting point... I can say with absolute certainty that I don't remember everything from every class I took in college, but I guess the judge thought GZ did. I wonder what, if any, bearing the decision to admit that as evidence will have on future court cases in FL?
I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, nor should anything I say be taken as legal advice. If it is important that any information be accurate, do not use me as the only source.

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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#36

Post by cb1000rider »

suthdj wrote:Remember the GZ trial they used his college text books to determine what he was trained on. If a LEO is trained on CHL laws I can see no excuse for not knowing however if they are not then they should conduct themselves accordingly an not let the ego rule the day.

GZ was accused of murder, not improperly arresting someone. There is going to be a different burden of scrutiny.
And I'll wager that I've already lost about 95% of what I learned in school.

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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#37

Post by unicyclist »

poppo wrote:
unicyclist wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:Why would you be bothered by a "No Firearms" sign? TX PC is quite clear that such a sign does not apply to CHL.
Now if they posted a valid 30.06...? Another story.
I am bothered by this because of the lack of knowledge by the chl holder (albeit small group, just look at these forums), by the park staff, and the LE.
Sorry, but IMO if a CHL holder does not know what a 30.06 sign is, and what is and isn't enforceable, I would rather they stay away from me anyway.
Absolutely agree, but IMO, a city/county/state organization should make it as easy as possible for anyone to understand.
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#38

Post by The Annoyed Man »

cb1000rider wrote:Handog has a pretty good example of an officer acting in what I'd consider bad faith. That officer arrested him and indicated handog's intent. It's the intent which made failure to conceal illegal, so clearly the officer, likely after some review (as handog didn't get arrested straight away), KNEW that law well enough, but arrested him anyway. As far as I know, no legal pay back and no legal repercussion to RR PD, even though there is no reported factual basis for writing down that the exposure was intentional. Don't know what I'm talking about? Review: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31719
handog didn't get arrested straight away because the officers were not the witnesses to the alleged "intentional failure to conceal." It was another person, inside the building, who witnessed his exposed gun, and she called the police. He concluded his business and exited the building to the parking lot. Police arrived while he was on his way to his vehicle and drew down on him in the parking lot. THAT is where and when he was immediately arrested. Police did not witness, nor review the alleged infraction. They were too busy at the donut shop or wherever they hang out in Round Rock to see the "crime."

handog's pistol was exposed because he was carrying SOB and his shirt tail had ridden up while he was sitting in a chair, waiting for his number to be called at the tax office. His number got called, and he stood up to go to the clerk's window. That's when the lady behind him saw his gun. He wasn't there at the window very long, he concluded his business, and he exited the building. Some time between when he stood up and when he exited the building is when the cops were called, probably sooner rather than later since they arrived in time to intercept him in the parking lot. He had several weapons pointed at him. They disarmed and arrested him on the spot. The rest is history.

I would like to think that police departments and prosecutors have mostly gotten through the learning process of dealing with citizens who are lawfully carrying, but given that CHL was passed in 1995, and there have been 18 intervening years, sometimes it seems like it is a slow learning curve. You would think that, given the now fairly high probability that LEOs will sooner or later interact with legally armed Texans, that their respective agencies (and the municipalities which employ them) would attach a higher priority to learning the law. The only reason I can think of for not attaching a priority to it is that some agencies/municipalities want to discourage the practice of CHL, and they don't particularly care if their ignorance results in the arrest of innocent law-abiding citizens. . . . .as long as it will intimidate those citizens into not exercising their rights. The individual officers may or may not be supportive of CHL, but they work in a corporate culture, just like everyone else does who works for a large employer, and their attitudes are going to be influenced by the internal departmental culture. And that culture is the product of the people who are in charge of the departments.

This is why I most particularly love that famous quote of Dr. Suzanna Gratia Hupp's
How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual… as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of.
How the city fathers view you will color how the Chief of Police will view you. And how he views you will color how his individual officers view you. . . . except when you encounter a truly free-thinking LEO. I don't say this to bash cops, but I think that they are largely a product of their communities. If there are fewer free-thinking people in the community, there will be fewer free-thinking cops. . . . . as well as fewer free-thinking police chiefs and city fathers.

I think that at the level of the individual line officer, his or her reaction to CHL is going to stem from whether they regard CHL as a hoop the rest of us have to jump through to express our God-given right, or whether they regard it as a permission extended to us which they can revoke at the drop of a hat. I think this difference of attitude can also be what drives the department and municipal cultures with respect to CHL.
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cb1000rider
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#39

Post by cb1000rider »

The Annoyed Man wrote: handog didn't get arrested straight away because the officers were not the witnesses to the alleged "intentional failure to conceal." It was another person, inside the building, who witnessed his exposed gun, and she called the police. He concluded his business and exited the building to the parking lot. Police arrived while he was on his way to his vehicle and drew down on him in the parking lot. THAT is where and when he was immediately arrested. Police did not witness, nor review the alleged infraction. They were too busy at the donut shop or wherever they hang out in Round Rock to see the "crime."
I'm with you.
How do you clear the fact that the officer, who did not witness the event, wrote down that handog's failure to conceal was "intentional". How do you enter that into the official record of the event if you didn't witness it? If a witness would have reported it, I'd assume that those facts would have been provided as witness statements, not direct officer evidence... In fact, if the witness (lied) and provided that information to the officer, I'd have a much lower level of concern about RR PD.
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#40

Post by puma guy »

cb1000rider wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote: handog didn't get arrested straight away because the officers were not the witnesses to the alleged "intentional failure to conceal." It was another person, inside the building, who witnessed his exposed gun, and she called the police. He concluded his business and exited the building to the parking lot. Police arrived while he was on his way to his vehicle and drew down on him in the parking lot. THAT is where and when he was immediately arrested. Police did not witness, nor review the alleged infraction. They were too busy at the donut shop or wherever they hang out in Round Rock to see the "crime."
I'm with you.
How do you clear the fact that the officer, who did not witness the event, wrote down that handog's failure to conceal was "intentional". How do you enter that into the official record of the event if you didn't witness it? If a witness would have reported it, I'd assume that those facts would have been provided as witness statements, not direct officer evidence... In fact, if the witness (lied) and provided that information to the officer, I'd have a much lower level of concern about RR PD.
I'm not going to go back and re -read the string but I seem to recall that handog was in his car and was pulled over by a plethora ( like 3-5 vehicles) of LEO's, all with weapons drawn and trained on him. When he exited his shirt had ridden up from the seat belt and he was not about to reach down to the weapon as he exited. But then I am old and can't remember a lot of stuff! It was a bad deal - I do remember that
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#41

Post by cb1000rider »

That's new to me... So he was charged not for the first incident, but for what happened after he was stopped?

Regardless, obviously it makes me think that RR is not CHL friendly. As such, I consider RR off limits in terms of carry.. I live nearby.
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#42

Post by puma guy »

cb1000rider wrote:That's new to me... So he was charged not for the first incident, but for what happened after he was stopped?

Regardless, obviously it makes me think that RR is not CHL friendly. As such, I consider RR off limits in terms of carry.. I live nearby.
That's what I remember, with the previous caveat. I don't think RR is CHL friendly.
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Re: New improper government 30.06 fight

#43

Post by unicyclist »

Update

I have (hopefully) convinced Galveston P&R to take the signs down. I was directed to talk to their attorney, and after a few months, the attorney concluded that the sign was not enforceable and did not follow state law. He advised me that Galveston county is planning on holding workshops and county commissioner court sessions to revise the current policy.

After talking to their attorney and getting him to say the sign was not valid, I called Galveston P&R Assistant Director and she said the sign would be removed within a day, and if not then, NLT 7 days. That was a few days ago and I have not had a chance to pass by and see if they were actually removed.

WOOHOO
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