Chaz7138 on Texas3006.com claim on letter size of 30.06

[Heartland Patriot]

C-dub, thanks for the link to the other thread. It was quite interesting to see the back and forth. It seems ultimately that the instructor backpedaled a bit while still somewhat standing by what he said. I find it rather disheartening that the DPS instructions seem to have introduced doubt to something that seemed absolutely clear before (30.06). I guess my personal standard will be that if I see a sign saying anything about the licensed possession I will turn away. I'll assume gun busters signs are like the "blue signs".


Thanks to everyone for the responses.

Each individual has to make a choice on passing any sign. If a person puts a gunbuster sign up and you are caught carrying past it, then you MIGHT get arrested, you MIGHT get prosecuted, and you will PROBABLY win in court and then can file a civil suit for unlawful arrest.

Bottom line, the statute is clear on 30.06 signs verbiage and size and the DPS teaches that. They DO NOT teach you that you will be totally in the clear if you pass a sign of any kind and someone decides to push the issue of notification and take it through the legal system. It could happen and the DPS folks let you know that. It is what you should relay to your students that there are those anti's out there that may push the envelope so you may not be 100% in telling them they are 'good to go' past any non-compliant sign.

Which is just proof that no matter how well a law is written, how clear the intention is, and how tightly the scope of it focuses, there will always be people who want to make their own laws up. My hat is still off to those who crafted and pushed to get 30.06 on the books so in Texas we would have a STANDARD at least, unlike other states.

[57Coastie]

That's not quite the way I understood it. Here is how I understood it.....

This is what the law says....this is what can happen

It is up to you to decide for yourself how far you are willing to push the issue. Bad news....no case law to back you up one way or the other. Good news.....there is no case law to back you up one way or the other.

As an instructor, are you willing to tell your students absolutely that they CAN or CANNOT carry? Or would it be better to tell them what the law says and then they can decide for themselves how far they are willing to push the issue

The voice of reason, lost in the background noise of macho males.

Jim

[Ameer]

It's reasonable to teach students the actual law and then offer your opinion that it's better to err on the side of caution.

It's irresponsible to represent your personal opinion as the law. Maybe even incompetent.

[speedsix]

...demagoguery...

[57Coastie]

It's reasonable to teach students the actual law and then offer your opinion that it's better to err on the side of caution.

It's irresponsible to represent your personal opinion as the law. Maybe even incompetent.

So very true! Across the board.

If anyone has wondered about, or been shocked by, lawyers' fees, Ameer's rule helps account for them. A good part of those fees go toward buying malpractice insurance.

Jim

[Scott in Houston]

My understanding is that 30.06 was clearly specified so that the signage wouldn't have variations. Otherwise a business owner can claim a simple "gunbusters" sign is sufficient "intent", right?

...right, like a 51% sign ...the law is specific so that we know where we stand...it gives us a mark to hit...and when we hit it...we're safe...no moving the goalposts during the game...allowing any size lettering contrary to the specified size is just like writing us a ticket for doing 40 when it's posted 40 and telling us "well, we meant 30"...

And 51% means nothing if the TABC license says "gun sign=blue" but they put up the 51% anyway.

I see this a LOT! And TABC hasn't done squat about it. I've reported more than 5 locations.

[KC5AV]

It's reasonable to teach students the actual law and then offer your opinion that it's better to err on the side of caution.

I tell my students, "This is what the statute says. This is what DPS legal would like us to tell you. Let your conscience be your guide."

[speedsix]

My understanding is that 30.06 was clearly specified so that the signage wouldn't have variations. Otherwise a business owner can claim a simple "gunbusters" sign is sufficient "intent", right?

...right, like a 51% sign ...the law is specific so that we know where we stand...it gives us a mark to hit...and when we hit it...we're safe...no moving the goalposts during the game...allowing any size lettering contrary to the specified size is just like writing us a ticket for doing 40 when it's posted 40 and telling us "well, we meant 30"...

And 51% means nothing if the TABC license says "gun sign=blue" but they put up the 51% anyway.

I see this a LOT! And TABC hasn't done squat about it. I've reported more than 5 locations.

...not surprised that THEY are sloppy...but that 51% sign is still for OUR protection...if we don't walk past one armed, they can't arrest us...and that's the reason I referred to it...without that 51% sign posted as the law says...we haven't broken the law...

[Keith B]

...not surprised that THEY are sloppy...but that 51% sign is still for OUR protection...if we don't walk past one armed, they can't arrest us...and that's the reason I referred to it...without that 51% sign posted as the law says...we haven't broken the law...

Actually, you have broken the law. The absence of a 51% sign at an actual 51% locaiton does NOT make it legal to enter, it is just a defense to prosecution. The presence of a 51% sign at a non-51% establishment does not make it illegal to enter. Either way, as Ricky Ricardo might say, 'Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!'

[speedsix]

...I don't read that in the law...46.035 says that we commit an offense if we INTENTIONALLY, KNOWINGLY, OR RECKLESSLY carry in a business that has a 51% permit...if it's not posted, the intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly haven't been met...

...any test cases to see how the prosecution handled those points?

[Keith B]

...I don't read that in the law...46.035 says that we commit an offense if we INTENTIONALLY, KNOWINGLY, OR RECKLESSLY carry in a business that has a 51% permit...if it's not posted, the intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly haven't been met...

...any test cases to see how the prosecution handled those points?

From our resident TABC expert viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44884#p544762" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[speedsix]

...I don't read that in the law...46.035 says that we commit an offense if we INTENTIONALLY, KNOWINGLY, OR RECKLESSLY carry in a business that has a 51% permit...if it's not posted, the intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly haven't been met...

...any test cases to see how the prosecution handled those points?

From our resident TABC expert viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44884#p544762" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...thanks for that...but before you need a defense to prosecution, you need to have met the elements of the crime...in this case INTENTIONALLY, KNOWINGLY, OR RECKLESSLY carrying in a 51% business

...in a church...I know I'm in a church...in a school, I know I'm in a school...but in a pool hall, or an American Legion post...the only reasonable way I can knowingly (or intentionally or recklessly) commit an offense is if I have some knowledge that this business is a 51% business...only discernable by an average citizen if they see the business' license or the required posted 51% sign...

...have there even been any arrests on this charge yet?

[Scott in Houston]

And 51% means nothing if the TABC license says "gun sign=blue" but they put up the 51% anyway.

I see this a LOT! And TABC hasn't done squat about it. I've reported more than 5 locations.

I've reported several in our area and the TABC is generally there in 3-5 days and almost in every case I've gotten an email back from the agent advising me of the updated status.

Guess Houston TABC is a bit busier?

Could be... one was in Waco though. TABC emailed me back and said they would follow up, but never did, and they never replied to my follow-up emails either.
And... the venue still has the improper signage... they have both the blue and red sign posted, but their license is 'blue'.
(It's George's in Waco)

Here's what I sent to TABC so they could see for themselves before making the trip out...

[Katygunnut]

Can you legally carry past a sign that does not meet the requirements specified in 30.06 = yes, you have broken no laws

Can you get arrested when you carry past a non-compliant sign = yes, there are some LEO's that are ignorant of the laws they have sworn to uphold

Can you get arrested if you carry past a sign saying "CHL holders welcome, please come on in" = yes, there are some LEO's that are ignorant of the laws they have sworn to uphold

Can you get arrested if you carry into a store that has no sign whatsoever = yes, there are some LEO's that are ignorant of the laws they have sworn to uphold

Can you get arrested for walking into a store, obeying all laws and NOT carrying any weapons whatsoever = yes, there are some LEO's that are ignorant of the laws they have sworn to uphold

Can you ensure that you will never ever get arrested = no you can't, there are some LEO's that are ignorant of the laws they have sworn to uphold

Should you avoid doing anything that might even slightly increase the risk of you being arrested after having committed no crime = that's up to you.