Chased Down in the parking lot at Kroger in Sachse

[frankie_the_yankee]

while finishing up this chemical engineering degree. I work in a retail pharmacy with an alarm systems on the entrance/exit.

we have a strict policy to not pursue people who continue to exit after the buzzer goes off. The company probably has a couple of things in mind. First, the safety of our employees is not worth risking to get back a 10 dollar item. Also we can keep from upsetting legit customers due to chasing them down after a false alarm.

And that is your company's free choice.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Just so you can all see the law on this:

Code of Criminal Procedure Article 18.16. PREVENTING CONSEQUENCES OF
THEFT.
Any person has a right to prevent the consequences of theft by seizing any personal property that has been stolen and bringing it, with the person suspected of committing the theft, if that person can be taken, before a magistrate for examination, or delivering the property and the person suspected of committing the theft to a peace officer for that purpose. To justify a seizure under this article, there must be reasonable ground to believe the property is stolen, and the seizure must be openly made and the proceedings had without delay.

Penal Code Article 9.22. NECESSITY.
Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately
necessary to avoid imminent harm;
(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh,
according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm
sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and
(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the
conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.


Note the words reasonable belief and seizure made without delay. I believe if the alarm goes off and you do not cooperate with the store, if they are aware of this law, you would lose any lawsuits against them.

I think the store would be in trouble if they were just checking receipts at the door (like Sam's Club), but an anti-theft alarm going off is going to be seen as reasonable by most of the people who serve on juries these days. They usually have forgotten what rights and freedom are.

And if you do hit the employee in the mouth, you would probably be found guilty of both assault and resisting arrest. The street is very rarely the place to fight these types of arguments, especially if you believe you can convince 12 people to have them give you big bucks later.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Just for discussion, I think part of your defense it that these stores have PLENTY monitored surveillance cameras in the building and since NOBODY saw your stuff items in your clothing, and you stopped at the cash register and your items were scanned by an employee, then a reasonable person would think it was a false alarm from item not getting demagnetized by cashier. So, stores need to put a perimeter collar on their employees and taze them when they make this error.

Now if someone try to stroll outside the building with items and bypass the register, then I agree then there is reasonable grounds.

Nice try, but that would never fly. Given a busy store and dozens of cameras, it's easy to see how someone could steal something and have it missed by the people monitoring the cameras.

Stephan has it exactly right.

If the alarm goes off and a store employee approaches you - cooperate.

We're the good guys, remember? We should act accordingly.

If someone physically asaults me in a parking lot. I will respond as if I've been assaulted. I get aproached all the time in parking lots by strangers. I tell them loudly and firmly "NO!" and warn them not to aproach. If someone is wearing an apron doesn't make them not a carjacker or other type of criminal.

As Stephen posted, an alarm going off is likely to be considered by most jurors as a basis for a reasonable belief that a theft was in progress. If a store employee approaches you and you refuse to cooperate, then they can (but probably won't) use reasonable force to take you back into the store. This is not an assault; it's a lawful use of reasonable force under the Code. If you hit them, you have committed an assault. If the fight escalates and someone really gets hurt, or you pull your pistol, you will have a major problem! Think about how 12 strangers are going to view your actions when all of this could have been avoided by showing the employee your receipt. You're going to come across as a jerk and the jury is going to show you how they feel about you in the only way than can -- the verdict.

Comments have been made about rampant false alarms. I have walked out of stores thousands of times in my life and I can recall a false alarm on a security device only about 3 ro 4 times. If a store manager testifies in your trial (civil or criminal) that false alarms make up a very small percentage of the times they go off, then you are probably going to lose. Now, if the store does have a track record of "excessive" false alarms, then a jury could also decide that the triggering of an alarm does not constitute reasonable belief that a theft is in progress. Unfortunately, as you are walking out the door of the store, you aren't going to know what the statistics are for that store, so you can't use that as basis for your action. (Your attorney will find that out for you, long after you wished you had never let it get that far.)

I don't like some of the security procedures stores use either, especially in the few times the alarms went off when I was leaving. But shoplifting is a multi-billion dollar problem annually and we all pay for the merchandise others steal. If I have to infrequently show a clerk a receipt, I'll admit I'm going to be miffed, but why turn it into a bigger problem? For those who will say it's a matter of losing our rights, no it is not! The stores have a right prevent theft, as long as they follow the dictates of the law. If they cross the line in doing so, then call me and we'll both make some money.

Chas.

[Liberty]

If someone physically asaults me in a parking lot. I will respond as if I've been assaulted. I get aproached all the time in parking lots by strangers. I tell them loudly and firmly "NO!" and warn them not to aproach. If someone is wearing an apron doesn't make them not a carjacker or other type of criminal.

Sure, and if you misinterpret the legitimate actions of a store employee investigating a possible theft and respond with force, you can expect to go to jail.

I don't believe that an assault has much room for interpetation. They lay a hand on me its assault. If I don't have any goods that are stolen they have no legal reason to lay a hand on me. We all have a legal right and moral obligation to protect ourselves. There is know way I am going to engage in a conversation in a parking lot with a stranger. To do so is dangerous. I'd rather take my chances with the court system than the weirdos hanging around store parkinglots

[frankie_the_yankee]

If someone physically asaults me in a parking lot. I will respond as if I've been assaulted. I get aproached all the time in parking lots by strangers. I tell them loudly and firmly "NO!" and warn them not to aproach. If someone is wearing an apron doesn't make them not a carjacker or other type of criminal.

Sure, and if you misinterpret the legitimate actions of a store employee investigating a possible theft and respond with force, you can expect to go to jail.

I don't believe that an assault has much room for interpetation. They lay a hand on me its assault. If I don't have any goods that are stolen they have no legal reason to lay a hand on me. We all have a legal right and moral obligation to protect ourselves. There is know way I am going to engage in a conversation in a parking lot with a stranger. To do so is dangerous. I'd rather take my chances with the court system than the weirdos hanging around store parkinglots

See Charles' post above, with which I fully agree.

FWIW, when I'm leaving a store and an alarm goes off I usually stop, turn around, and try to catch the eye of an employee. Invariably, they simply wave me through and we're done.

Since I know I haven't stolen anything, I have nothing to worry about. Being a good guy (hopefully), I try to be nice to others whom I may run into. Since I'm carrying a gun, I would hate to get involved in some altercation over a silly misunderstanding.

Being nice goes a long way.

And I have no worries at all about being "assaulted" in a parking lot by a store employee. Store policy invariably instructs employees to be respectful when approaching people in that situation, precisely because they know full well that false alarms DO happen, and that checkout clerks somes forget to properly neutralize the RFID tags. So the idea that an employee is going to come charging out and put the grab on me is ludicrous.

What is far more likely is that, if they do anything at all, someone will approach me saying something like, "Excuse me sir. Blah, blah, blah....."

Not exactly something that justifies a rap in the mouth or any other kind of beligerent action. And no jury would interpret that as an "assault".

Of course you have rights. So does the other guy. Be a good guy. Be nice.

[flintknapper]

If someone physically asaults me in a parking lot. I will respond as if I've been assaulted. I get aproached all the time in parking lots by strangers. I tell them loudly and firmly "NO!" and warn them not to aproach. If someone is wearing an apron doesn't make them not a carjacker or other type of criminal.

Sure, and if you misinterpret the legitimate actions of a store employee investigating a possible theft and respond with force, you can expect to go to jail.

I don't believe that an assault has much room for interpetation. They lay a hand on me its assault. If I don't have any goods that are stolen they have no legal reason to lay a hand on me. We all have a legal right and moral obligation to protect ourselves. There is know way I am going to engage in a conversation in a parking lot with a stranger. To do so is dangerous. I'd rather take my chances with the court system than the weirdos hanging around store parkinglots

See Charles' post above, with which I fully agree.

FWIW, when I'm leaving a store and an alarm goes off I usually stop, turn around, and try to catch the eye of an employee. Invariably, they simply wave me through and we're done.

Since I know I haven't stolen anything, I have nothing to worry about. Being a good guy (hopefully), I try to be nice to others whom I may run into. Since I'm carrying a gun, I would hate to get involved in some altercation over a silly misunderstanding.

Being nice goes a long way.

And I have no worries at all about being "assaulted" in a parking lot by a store employee. Store policy invariably instructs employees to be respectful when approaching people in that situation, precisely because they know full well that false alarms DO happen, and that checkout clerks somes forget to properly neutralize the RFID tags. So the idea that an employee is going to come charging out and put the grab on me is ludicrous.

What is far more likely is that, if they do anything at all, someone will approach me saying something like, "Excuse me sir. Blah, blah, blah....."

Not exactly something that justifies a rap in the mouth or any other kind of beligerent action. And no jury would interpret that as an "assault".

Of course you have rights. So does the other guy. Be a good guy. Be nice.

Excellent!!!!!!

[Liberty]

As Stephen posted, an alarm going off is likely to be considered by most jurors as a basis for a reasonable belief that a theft was in progress. If a store employee approaches you and you refuse to cooperate, then they can (but probably won't) use reasonable force to take you back into the store. This is not an assault; it's a lawful use of reasonable force under the Code. If you hit them, you have committed an assault. If the fight escalates and someone really gets hurt, or you pull your pistol, you will have a major problem! Think about how 12 strangers are going to view your actions when all of this could have been avoided by showing the employee your receipt. You're going to come across as a jerk and the jury is going to show you how they feel about you in the only way than can -- the verdict.

Comments have been made about rampant false alarms. I have walked out of stores thousands of times in my life and I can recall a false alarm on a security device only about 3 ro 4 times. If a store manager testifies in your trial (civil or criminal) that false alarms make up a very small percentage of the times they go off, then you are probably going to lose. Now, if the store does have a track record of "excessive" false alarms, then a jury could also decide that the triggering of an alarm does not constitute reasonable belief that a theft is in progress. Unfortunately, as you are walking out the door of the store, you aren't going to know what the statistics are for that store, so you can't use that as basis for your action. (Your attorney will find that out for you, long after you wished you had never let it get that far.)

I don't like some of the security procedures stores use either, especially in the few times the alarms went off when I was leaving. But shoplifting is a multi-billion dollar problem annually and we all pay for the merchandise others steal. If I have to infrequently show a clerk a receipt, I'll admit I'm going to be miffed, but why turn it into a bigger problem? For those who will say it's a matter of losing our rights, no it is not! The stores have a right prevent theft, as long as they follow the dictates of the law. If they cross the line in doing so, then call me and we'll both make some money.

Chas.

Are we supposed to stop for a stranger when they verbally demand? or allow someone to physically stop us? I live in area where its almost impossible to get from the grocery store to the parking lot without being approached by bums or potential carjackers. To stop because a stranger insist on it seems to be a dangerous idea. I also have some real lousy hearing and it would be possible for me to not hear or notice the beeps they aren't very loud.

I'm stopped all the time at Sams or Frye's but that doesn't bother me because its still inside the store. Aren't we all defencive at parking lots? They are dangerous places, and store employees should recognize that safety indicates we not talk to strangers and that forcefull attempts at stopping folks is not a good idea.

[GrillKing]

I have made up my mind to politely cooperate, but making it clear I am not stealing, if approached by a store employee and they insist I stay. I will tell them at that time that I am not stealing, I want to call the police and that this will occur in a public area. I will then return to the store, near the registers and wait for the police. I will not go into the 'back room', but will politely insist to remain in a public area until the police arrive. At that time, I will follow any requirements of the police. I will politely refuse any consent searches, but may be searched anyway. If they are to accuse me in public, I want the proceedings to be public. The statute also says the 'seizure' must be openly made. No back rooms. I don't know what options I would after I was done, but I would at least consult an lawyer.

Now when I'm inside a store and leaving and the alarm goes off or they ask to search my bags, I just politely say no thank you and keep walking. I have a problem with that, unless they have cause they aren't searching. If they insist, we go to the procedure above. I am alwys polite, it isn't the person asking to search making the policy, they are only doing a job, I don't take it out on them.

The key is always polite, appear to cooperate while verbalizing your rights and concerns, make sure it is public, wait for police.

[stevie_d_64]

I'm glad Stephan posted the info there...

I also agree that its hard to not be miffed at being dressed down in the parking lot of the store you just walked out of...

I actually prefer to have a store employee stationed at the exits to cursory glance at the contents of the cart, and mark the reciept...That used to bother me, mainly because at first it appeared to be a shake-down to me, but if history shows, and Charles is dead on right again:

Loss Prevention in retail outlets has become a very important endevour at these store chains...I guess I just don't like how some implement the procedures...

I know in a way it does all add up after a while...And it costs us all one way or another...

The question you have to ask and answer yourself is this...If you know you have not committed an act of thievery, does the pack of balogna you have bagged up in your cart really stolen??? IF it was not properly checked out of the store or rung up???

I'll hang out for a second or two, but don't come at me assuming I stole something to begin with...

Of course this all has to do with some sort of self-defense issue...But I don't see even in my wildest hallucinations someone getting shot over a package of bologna...

Just my normal Sunday morning drivle I suppose...

[BrassMonkey]

Call me a bad guy. Someone commits an act of battery against me, store employee or not. They are going down. There are no warnings. There is no I will give you to the count of three. The threat will be stopped. Period. Cite me, take me to jail. Whatever...

[frankie_the_yankee]

Are we supposed to stop for a stranger when they verbally demand? or allow someone to physically stop us? I live in area where its almost impossible to get from the grocery store to the parking lot without being approached by bums or potential carjackers. To stop because a stranger insist on it seems to be a dangerous idea.

So how many times have you been carjacked?

From your statement above, it makes me wonder how you have managed to make it this far without being jacked up or whacked.

I think I can tell the difference between a panhandler, a carjacker, and a store employee who respectfully approaches me (as they have been trained to do) and engages me in conversation.

I would hope that you or anyone else who carries a gun in public can easily make those distinctions as well.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Call me a bad guy. Someone commits an act of battery against me, store employee or not. They are going down. There are no warnings. There is no I will give you to the count of three. The threat will be stopped. Period. Cite me, take me to jail. Whatever...

What "threat"?

"Excuse me sir. The inventory control alarm went off when you left the store. Could I please look in your bag to make sure everything was properly rung up?"

No store employee is going to commit an act of battery against you just because an alarm went off as you were walking out. (Now if someone actually saw you steal something that would be a different story, but we are assuming here that you are totally innocent.)

So it seems to me that you are getting all huffy over absolutely nothing.

I think it is safe to say that if you respond to the above with any sort of force, you will be taken to jail, and rightfully so.

You're carrying a gun in public. You have an obligation to AVOID conflicts. Don't go looking for them out of thin air.

[lrb111]

IApparently the person at the register failed to deactivate a tag.

That seems to be a very normal happening at the local Walmart. Either the checker forgets, or the stocker puts tags on items that are not expected to be tagged. I used to live next door to the supervisor for loss prevention in this area.
It happens so often at the local store that very few folks even seem upset anymore. There might be even a couple carts stopped when I enter, with the alarm going off. fwiw, I never see any "security" types either.
This is at both front doors.

It does present a quandary with the growth of thefts and muggings in WalMart parking lots.

[Liberty]

Are we supposed to stop for a stranger when they verbally demand? or allow someone to physically stop us? I live in area where its almost impossible to get from the grocery store to the parking lot without being approached by bums or potential carjackers. To stop because a stranger insist on it seems to be a dangerous idea.

So how many times have you been carjacked?

Never and and one reason is I believe is that I tolorate no nonsense on my way to my car.

I think I can tell the difference between a panhandler, a carjacker, and a store employee who respectfully approaches me (as they have been trained to do) and engages me in conversation.

I can't !! they all look the same to me. Chasing me in a parking lot, as the topic title suggest, isn't a being respectful. Physically stopping me in a parking lot isn't being respectful. I have learned that when strangers chase me down it usually isn't going to have a positive outcome. If a stranger physically attempts to stop me or restrain me. It is likely to have a positive outcome .

I would hope that you or anyone else who carries a gun in public can easily make those distinctions as well.

So far I've made pretty legitimate judgments in what constitutes legitimate threats to my person. Any nonLEO who physically tries to force their will upon me will not get my cooperation.

As I have mentioned before, I will be willing to be more co-operative while still inside the store.

[TX Rancher]

Liberty:

Just a question to help me understand your stance.

If you were 10-50 ft outside the store (probably as far as you would make it before someone approached you) and a store employee came up to you and said “Sir, did you hear the alarm going off when you went through the door? According to store policy I would like to check your bag to make sure everything was properly scanned�. During this time, they are not touching you, or making any aggressive moves, and the above comments were said politely, would you comply?