That's kinda funny: whatever happened to "when seconds count, the police are minutes away"? I agree, if I can get to my car and get out behind the guy, or block him in, while on the phone with 911, that's the better scenario. But what if I can't? What if I try to do so and fail (traffic around a mall is generally a zoo)? Either of those two are going to be far more likely and would result in me being able to give only a description and the first turn the guy made. If the officer is not RIGHT behind him at that time, he takes another turn and he's gone.
The police will take a kidnapping in progress report seriously and will be there as fast as is possible. You seem to think that unless YOU catch the person…that all is lost.
Actually, the police do a pretty darn good job of finding folks that have “freshly� left a scene. Most cities have numerous units they can dispatch, they have communication links, they are trained, some depts. even have aerial assistance, they have the ability to put out an Amber Alert many places. You have a misplaced eagerness to help and some bravado. Neither are appropriate in third party situations where you don’t know all the facts.
If I honestly believed you were kidnapping the child I'd draw and order you to the ground.
O.K. well you have me quaking now! Suppose I just don’t feel like “going to the ground�?
Now what? Do you shoot?
Maybe you could order me to the ground a little louder, possibly I didn’t hear you…or more likely I just don’t scare that easy. Ever thought of that?
Beyond that, define "resistance"; if it's the stuff below, bee below. Approach on me and I fire. Retreat with the kid and I follow. Retreat without the kid and I advance to cover ground between me and the kid but no further. If you're gonna stand there and argue with me you can do so till you're blue in the face, but in any case if I draw my gun it will not be lowered until someone in uniform shows up. Presenting to someone who may or may not have a gun himself is risky; lowering the gun after you've done so is suicidal.
I see you have this all neatly planned out. Do you have any tactical training? Have you considered that I may not be acting alone? Oops! If I retreat with the child and you advance.. you will most likely expose yourself. Rule #1, if you have a clear path to take a shot at me, then I have one of you also.
No; that's what the gun is for.
Ahhhhhh, so your first reaction is to go for your weapon. Is it reasonable to assume that someone might call the police and report “man with a gun� (putting you at risk when they arrive).
Is it possible that some other brave soul with your same propensity to get involved might draw a gun on YOU while this all happening? Maybe they “thought� some guy was robbing a parent and his child.
Two ways to shield yourself; duck behind the child, or pick up the child. Duck, and I've accomplished my objective; you can duck all you like till the police show up. Pick up the child and the child will not cover you effectively. You also are limited by the additional weight; it will be harder for you to run, jump, or bend down, and holding onto the child makes it more difficult for you to produce a weapon.
I can easily pick up any child up to 100 lbs. (struggling or not) and carry them. Even a small child would effectively cover all of my vital areas (look at a B-27 target). Are you pretty good at shooting moving targets?
If I have an accomplice waiting in a van, how hard do you think it would be for me to keep you pinned down behind concealment until I get to the vehicle?
Consider the situation. I've drawn and sighted my weapon with the intention of using it.
If you ever do this to another person who is carrying, I hope their first reaction is to respond in kind. I know it would it be mine, and my intent would be the same as yours. Does that sound like a good deal for anyone? I think you believe that if you produce a weapon…the other person is going to immediately obey your commands or faint dead away. Not likely!
The question is, are YOU REALLY good enough to draw, point and shoot before I get a shot off?
Don’t know. Don’t know how “good� you are. I do know that the cemeteries are full of people that underestimated their opponent or dumb luck.
If you pick up the child in one arm AND produce a weapon, then honestly no, I couldn't trust myself to get a shot off around the kid before you'd be able to fire at me. I'd have to find my own cover around the next car. Very last resort: duck, double-tap at your legs, roll and run. A broken tib-fib is not going to support you and the kid, and even if I miss you're not likely to hit me either with lead coming your way and my center of mass two feet lower than it was a second ago.
The “next car� assuming it’s available.. is NOT cover…save for the engine/transmission and maybe the wheels.
It provides “concealment� more than anything else. And good luck “double tapping� my legs…which will be on the move. Most folks can’t hit a full size IDPA target reliably when it’s moving, let alone something as small as my lower leg.
And when you miss, where did those errant rounds go? Hopefully not into that same crowded parking lot you were talking about earlier.
Nope; the tire of your car is a much better way to keep you where you are. And if you do drive off, I just add the flat tire to my description of the getaway vehicle; the sparks from the rim will make you easy to spot and will slow you down considerably. If you run and take the child with you, I think I'm in good enough shape to keep pace. If you run without the child, mission accomplished.
Well….now we have imagined a convenient shot at my tires. Or maybe not…since I’m putting my own rounds your direction and you are busy keeping your head down behind that Volkswagen Jetta.
Meanwhile my partner has positioned the van two rows over facing away. Shouldn’t be any problem to pop those tires though.
My CHL gives me the ability to carry concealed. With or without it, I have the justification and thus the ability to use deadly force in defense of a third person to prevent a kidnapping, without retreat, anywhere I have a legal right to be, and that includes the parking lot. Even if I broke the law by carrying it, I would be justified in using it. There's no "authority" to be given; it's a civic duty.
Exactly! It gives you the “ability� but provides no “sensibility�, that is something we have to apply ourselves based on the totality of the circumstance. And there is no “civic duty� to inject yourself into a situation where your presence has a high probability of making it worse.
I agree. I said myself that drawing a weapon immediately opens the doors for a world of legal trouble whether you're wrong or right. But I've said many more times: the second you "know", whether in your gut or because the facts scream it from the rooftops, that it won't end well if you do not pull your weapon and use it, is the second you do exactly that. The weapon you leave in your waistband is just as helpful as the one in your car's glove compartment when you're in the store, or the one at home when you're in the car.
We are in agreement here. I can think of numerous scenarios where a person might witness (firsthand and without doubt) events that beckon intervention. I doubt many third party situations will be that clear cut though. Hence… my advice to be careful.
I understand, but see above.
I did “see above�, that is why I don’t think you understand how easily your good intentions could turn into a fiasco as concerns a (supposed) kidnapping.
Basically, there are two considerations:
1. Is what I am seeing an “actual� unlawful kidnapping?
2. If I intervene (at any level), will my actions make the situation better or worse?
It is NOT enough to have good intentions, it doesn’t matter that the “law� is your side. If you are not certain that your actions will make a positive difference in the outcome, then be a good witness and let the police do their job.
Now, maybe you’re fresh out of the military and you trained Special Forces while you were in. Perhaps…you are well trained and equipped to handle high stress situations such as we discussed. I don’t know.
Personally, I am hesitant to encourage the use of deadly force in a third party situation on the internet. I have only to look to the left and right of me when I go to renew each time to see why that is. Most folks don’t have what it takes to pull off what you say you would do.
Just my .02 on it, and I respect yours as well.
Flint.
