So, anybody else CCW a mousegun?

[mr.72]

These are valid ideas, though we part ways in application. As I see things, it will require more time and effort to learn to draw and shoot a tiny, flyweight mousegun reliably than a 15-25 ounce .38 Special snubnose revolver or mid-sized 9mm pistol that fills the hand more completely. I may be wrong here, but I speculate there is a much larger number of instructors who can provide meaningful instruction on the aforementioned .38 Specials and 9mms (courtesy of competition shooting, law enforcement training and individual motivation and experience) than those who can provide quality instruction specific to mouseguns, where the students' performance matches that of people shooting larger, heavier guns.

Likewise, it takes much more time and effort to properly learn to drive a 5,000+ lb SUV, truck or van safely in an emergency than it does to learn to drive a sports car of half the weight. But alas, most people choose these heavy vehicles and do not consider their lack of skill to drive them correctly in an emergency.

In the same way, even though it may take more time and effort to learn to use a "mouse gun", many people are going to ignore this fact and choose one anyway. This will be even more true if there is little or no applicable training or instruction available for the correct use of the "mouse gun". They choose them for the same reason they choose a giant car: convenience.

So if your theory is true, then it should follow that instructors should teach people to properly use "mouse guns", since there is a high likelihood they are going to get them, because just like me trying to tell all the soccer moms that everybody is safer if they drive a 2500 lb car, most people will ignore advice that doesn't seem to fit their lifestyle.

The fact remains that we are left with these choices:

a. choose a gun that is easy to shoot accurately and draw/fire under pressure, but is too large to carry conveniently or comfortably so we leave it at home
b. choose a gun that is more difficult to use correctly, but is far more convenient and comfortable to carry so we carry it all the time
c. listen to the chorus of "experts" telling us that if we intend to carry a concealed handgun, we are going to have to change our wardrobe and lifestyle to fit, so instead don't even bother with it

It is my suggestion that we adapt our instruction to include the most likely scenario that people who carry are likely to carry a more compact gun, perhaps in a pocket, and maybe even in a purse, so they need the correct instruction on how to defend themselves under those circumstances.

If someone had told me right up front that the gun I chose would be difficult to conceal without changing my wardrobe, I would not have bought this gun. I would have bought something much smaller, and all of my trigger time would be with a gun I intend to carry. As it is, I am wrestling with the likelihood of ever carrying at all because concealment is just too much trouble with this particular gun. Being dogmatic about this will only result in smart, qualified people choosing not to carry.

BTW I shoot a Kahr CW9 and even a PM9 more accurately than my full-size 9mm. I am certain I can draw them faster from a Smartcarry because they have less bulk to get out from under my belt. I don't understand the argument that these small guns require more skill or effort to shoot accurately. It does not match my experience.

[The Annoyed Man]

VERY WELL SAID!!!

+1

Look, most of the time, you're going to find me carrying a 1911. You're also going to find me wearing jeans, boots, and an untucked shirt; or cargo shorts, sandals, and an untucked shirt... ...you get the point. A 3" 1911 conceals very nicely that way, and I've already invested substantial money in a couple of "untuckable" IWB holsters for that pistol, so I'm not going to run right out and buy another expensive tuckable - at least not at this time.

But this morning, I had to attend a chamber of commerce function, and something other than jeans/boots, or shorts/sandals was called for. My clothing choice accommodated neither my 1911 nor the 642 I normally pocket carry when the 1911 isn't practical. Something small in .380 like a P3AT or LCP would have been perfect - but I didn't have one. Now I own a website design business which is only a month old. I'm still at the point where I've got to do what I've got to do in order to build my business. A lot of the time, I can wear whatever I want, and it has no impact on what I'm doing. I can write code in my bathrobe. But other times, I have to interact with potential or actual customers in a professional setting, and the clothing choices I make are important to the way I try and present myself. This is my livelihood we are talking about here, and it involves the welfare of my family as well as my own. I don't have the luxury of always dictating the conditions under which I will meet with someone, and I don't have the luxury of punching a time clock. I want to stay armed as much as possible, but I have to balance that with my professional requirements. This morning, for lack of a mousegun, I went out unarmed for the first time in a while. I hated it, but for lack of a pistol smaller and more concealable than my 642, it had to be done.

yerasimos, I understand where you're coming from, but I have to respectfully disagree. I will always carry as much caliber as I can, and about 90% or more of the time, .45 ACP is not only doable, it is my 1st choice. For me, it's not about getting used to carrying the minimum caliber as a matter of habit. Rather, it is about carrying the biggest caliber choice I can get away with, given the circumstances in which I have to operate. I love guns and shooting, I cherish my RKBA, and I am proud of my CHL, but my entire life does not revolve around them, and I have a business to run. If the choice is to occasionally go armed with a smaller pistol, enabling me to do the business things I need to do to survive, then in my book, that is better than not being armed at all. For that reason, I will eventually purchase a small, easy to conceal .380 - not as my primary carry gun, but because sometimes that's just simply what you have to do to be armed - and I will spend some time learned to get good with it. Being inflexibly dogmatic about it fails to take into consideration all the many variables which can affect other people, and it does not serve a good purpose in my view. With all due respect, until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes, the advice you give that person may possibly be ill-informed.

I seek balance in all things. I will always try to carry as much caliber as I can get away with, but I'm not going to walk around feeling like a 2nd class RKBA citizen just because I had good reason to caliber down for a day; and I'm not going to put myself in a business situation where the lump in my pocket or on my side under my shirt is drawing more attention than the sales presentation I'm trying to make.

Just my 2¢.

[yerasimos]

So if your theory is true, then it should follow that instructors should teach people to properly use "mouse guns", since there is a high likelihood they are going to get them, because just like me trying to tell all the soccer moms that everybody is safer if they drive a 2500 lb car, most people will ignore advice that doesn't seem to fit their lifestyle.

Teaching people to shoot mouseguns well could be a lucrative niche market, as I have never seen anyone promoting such instruction, yet so many people are carrying the mouseguns.

The fact remains that we are left with these choices:

a. choose a gun that is easy to shoot accurately and draw/fire under pressure, but is too large to carry conveniently or comfortably so we leave it at home
b. choose a gun that is more difficult to use correctly, but is far more convenient and comfortable to carry so we carry it all the time
c. listen to the chorus of "experts" telling us that if we intend to carry a concealed handgun, we are going to have to change our wardrobe and lifestyle to fit, so instead don't even bother with it

Count the costs---all of them---and make your choice. I advocate being aware of all of the costs.

It is my suggestion that we adapt our instruction to include the most likely scenario that people who carry are likely to carry a more compact gun, perhaps in a pocket, and maybe even in a purse, so they need the correct instruction on how to defend themselves under those circumstances.

Hopefull there is an instructor that will accommodate your interest. I can think of two out-of-state instructors who specialize in J-frame/snub-nose revolvers. I have not yet heard of an instructor offering a shooting course focused upon mouseguns---but admittedly I have not sought one.

If someone had told me right up front that the gun I chose would be difficult to conceal without changing my wardrobe, I would not have bought this gun. I would have bought something much smaller, and all of my trigger time would be with a gun I intend to carry. As it is, I am wrestling with the likelihood of ever carrying at all because concealment is just too much trouble with this particular gun. Being dogmatic about this will only result in smart, qualified people choosing not to carry.

I have come to the conclusion that dressing like a Men's Health/Details cover model and consistently hauling around a mid-size 9mm or .38 Special snubnose are mutually-exclusive lifestyles. I can choose one or the other---but I cannot do both. And unless I misunderstand you, in your situation, the smaller guns are still problematic with your chosen mode of dress.

BTW I shoot a Kahr CW9 and even a PM9 more accurately than my full-size 9mm. I am certain I can draw them faster from a Smartcarry because they have less bulk to get out from under my belt. I don't understand the argument that these small guns require more skill or effort to shoot accurately. It does not match my experience.

I have no reason to doubt your statements regarding accuracy and draw times. That said, there is more to real-life use of a handgun than raw accuracy, and drawing from a open-top belt holster will be typically faster and more reliable than drawing from a Smartcarry. I reckon your full-size 9mm fits your hand poorly.

The bias against the mouseguns may be due to the fact that people who gravitate toward the full-size handguns may have larger hands, and the mouseguns may squirm in these larger hands under recoil, a reciprocating slide may abrade flesh, or be otherwise more difficult to hold consistently. Conversely, those with small hands may have a hard time manipulating everything on a full-size handgun, but find a mousegun is more proportional to the gripping surfaces of their hands. Couple this with the fact that the best ammunition and holsters are frequently introduced first for the larger guns, while equivalent improvements may or may not filter down to the mouseguns.

The individuality of handgun-to-hand fit may deserve its own thread.

[NcongruNt]

Quote: "If I can conceal and control a full-sized handgun, why downsize?"

Some folks can't - or won't.

It seems that mouse guns are indeed the everyday "primary carry gun" for a surprising percentage of CHL people, people who, by human nature, would otherwise not carry at all due to discomfort or (often simply perceived) difficulty concealing something larger.

From the feedback received in renewal classes over the years, maybe 50 percent of TX license holders in our area actually carry regularly "on body". And about half of those have decided to "downsize" rather than carry one exclusively in the car - or even worse, not have one with them at all.

Agreed. My primary carry is a Hi-Power (easily fitting in the "full-size handgun" category), but my BUG is a Ruger LCP. Why carry it? If there's a failure of any sort with the Hi-Power or if my main carry is made inaccessible, I have something to turn to. This thread comes to mind:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 23&t=15270

In that situation, a police officer was attacked by a bat-wielding teenager, and his primary carry gun was knocked away before he could use it. The only reason he prevailed is because he had a BUG in an ankle holster to dispatch his assailant.

The LCP lets me be more prepared for more situations without having to deal with much inconvenience in carrying a second firearm. It easily fits in lots of places that would be impossible for a larger weapon. In situations where dress requirements make a large gun an impossibility, I can stay armed with my little gun. I'd sooner have my full-sized sidearm in a defensive situation, but a "mouse gun" will do the job if needed.

In trying to convince my girlfriend to get her CHL, every other gun I've had is "too big" for her to want to carry. The LCP was the first gun small enough for her to consider carrying. I'd sooner more folks carry a little .380 than nothing at all.

[longtooth]

Yep.
One .380 in the back pocket is worth way more than 2 .45s in the sock drawer.

[yerasimos]

yerasimos, I understand where you're coming from, but I have to respectfully disagree. I will always carry as much caliber as I can, and about 90% or more of the time, .45 ACP is not only doable, it is my 1st choice. For me, it's not about getting used to carrying the minimum caliber as a matter of habit. Rather, it is about carrying the biggest caliber choice I can get away with, given the circumstances in which I have to operate. I love guns and shooting, I cherish my RKBA, and I am proud of my CHL, but my entire life does not revolve around them, and I have a business to run. If the choice is to occasionally go armed with a smaller pistol, enabling me to do the business things I need to do to survive, then in my book, that is better than not being armed at all. For that reason, I will eventually purchase a small, easy to conceal .380 - not as my primary carry gun, but because sometimes that's just simply what you have to do to be armed - and I will spend some time learned to get good with it. Being inflexibly dogmatic about it fails to take into consideration all the many variables which can affect other people, and it does not serve a good purpose in my view. With all due respect, until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes, the advice you give that person may possibly be ill-informed.

I seek balance in all things. I will always try to carry as much caliber as I can get away with, but I'm not going to walk around feeling like a 2nd class RKBA citizen just because I had good reason to caliber down for a day; and I'm not going to put myself in a business situation where the lump in my pocket or on my side under my shirt is drawing more attention than the sales presentation I'm trying to make.

Just my 2¢.

People should be free to make their own choices, but each choice has a cost.

In my view, if you practice your draw all the time with your 1911 from an IWB holster at 4 o'clock using a closed-front untucked cover garment, but one day you feel obliged to carry the same gun in a Smartcarry, tucked under a belt, trousers and button-down shirt, and you do not practice drawing from this setup very regularly compared to the strong-side hip rig, you may be "armed" but you are not "ready". You may be able to get it into action proactively (intervening to defend a third person, for example), but it is probably too complicated to get into action quickly when you have to react immediately to a hands-on, in-progress assault to defend yourself.

If you carry a .380 ACP autopistol, with a different manual of arms from your regular carry, in a different place than where you practice drawing from, you may be "armed", but think carefully before you consider yourself "ready".

(The baseball bat vs police officer episode was truly exceptional.)

This may sound very arrogant, but I do not feel that I am missing much by neglecting the mouseguns. For now, I will accept the risk of ignoring them and instead focus upon higher-yield skills and attributes that I expect may play a greater role in surviving a criminal assault.

[mr.72]

Teaching people to shoot mouseguns well could be a lucrative niche market, as I have never seen anyone promoting such instruction, yet so many people are carrying the mouseguns.

Well, depending on what you mean by "mousegun", if you mean a compact, concealable gun (regardless of caliber) then I think it should be the other way around. Those willing to carry a medium-to-large-frame auto are going to be the "niche" and those likely to carry only a smaller compact pistol are the majority, I would think.

Sounds like the majority of instruction is aimed at the minority of users.

I have come to the conclusion that dressing like a Men's Health/Details cover model and consistently hauling around a mid-size 9mm or .38 Special snubnose are mutually-exclusive lifestyles. I can choose one or the other---but I cannot do both.

I agree. But you seem to be implying that equipping one's self for self defense with a useful concealed pistol is mutually exclusive to fashionable dress, but it is only so if we subscribe to the "mouseguns=useless" dogma. I don't want to be putting words in your mouth, but this is the impression I am getting. My point is that maybe more people would carry if they were given good advice about carrying a gun more appropriate for their style of dress.

And unless I misunderstand you, in your situation, the smaller guns are still problematic with your chosen mode of dress.

Not such a problem for me, but certainly a problem for my wife. She would have to make a pretty major wardrobe adjustment to conceal a pack of gum. I can easily conceal something as large as a Kahr CW9 and a PM9 is pocketable.

I have no reason to doubt your statements regarding accuracy and draw times. That said, there is more to real-life use of a handgun than raw accuracy, and drawing from a open-top belt holster will be typically faster and more reliable than drawing from a Smartcarry. I reckon your full-size 9mm fits your hand poorly.

Actually my full-size 9mm fits my hand extremely well, and the little Kahrs are very small in my hands (I'm about 5'11" with pretty big hands). I was simply pointing out that larger guns are not necessarily more accurate nor faster to draw under all circumstances.

An open top holster, IWB or otherwise, in and of itself dictates a complete change of wardrobe for most people I know who are under the age of 40 and living in Central TX. That is probably 100% for women in that age bracket. In fact even with a small gun like a Kel-Tec or Kahr 9mm, small-of-the-back is just about the only carry method that would not have a huge impact on wardrobe for this crowd.

Couple this with the fact that the best ammunition and holsters are frequently introduced first for the larger guns, while equivalent improvements may or may not filter down to the mouseguns.

Again this gets back to "what is a mousegun". If you are talking about small calibre then I understand this statement. But you can get a Kahr PM-size gun in a .40 or 9mm and a CW/P size frame in a .45. Certainly the best handgun ammunition is available for 9mm thru .45, is it not?

[NcongruNt]

The bias against the mouseguns may be due to the fact that people who gravitate toward the full-size handguns may have larger hands, and the mouseguns may squirm in these larger hands under recoil, a reciprocating slide may abrade flesh, or be otherwise more difficult to hold consistently. Conversely, those with small hands may have a hard time manipulating everything on a full-size handgun, but find a mousegun is more proportional to the gripping surfaces of their hands. Couple this with the fact that the best ammunition and holsters are frequently introduced first for the larger guns, while equivalent improvements may or may not filter down to the mouseguns.

The individuality of handgun-to-hand fit may deserve its own thread.

It's more subjective than a simple small gun=bad fit for large hands statement can cover.

As stated above, I primarily carry a Hi-Power. This is a relatively large pistol and has Pachmayr wraparound grips with finger grooves. It fits in my hand very well. Despite its small size and my ability to only get 1 1/2 fingers on the grip, the LCP is a natural shooter for me. The recoil movement is minimal, and I was surprised how well it shot for being a tiny little thing. I experienced no slide or hammer bite as I did with other guns of the same or larger size (such as the NAA backup .380 or my PA-63). It is enjoyable enough to shoot, that putting a hundred rounds downrange leaves me no worse for wear than I started. It is easy to practice with, and I have no qualms about my ability to move and shoot with it after only a couple of sessions of practice. A week ago, I did multiple threat moving and shooting practice with it, transitioning between 3 different targets. I was able to hit them all with reasonable accuracy.

As is evidenced by the introduction of the LCP, and announcements by several manufacturers to bring out similar guns, I believe the market is opening up for smaller guns to a good extent. What was once a market for expensive special-purpose guns (Rohrbaugh, Seecamp, NAA Guardian/Backup, etc.) has shifted to the reality that more people want to carry these weapons every day. The P3AT/P32, LCP, and other upcoming pistols reflect a demand for these kinds of weapons, and the holster/accessories market is beginning to pick up the slack in these areas. Naturally, the size of the guns means that there are more options to carry and hip carry is not as much a necessity as with full-sized handguns.

Citing the LCP and Galco holsters as an example, there is a decent selection of options already available. Galco has 4 different options already available for waistband carry of the LCP, as well as and two ankle holsters and 2 pocket holsters. Alternative carry methods are plentiful for this gun as well, and there are other accessories like belt mag pouches available. This is from a single holster manufacturer. While "mouse guns" have historically been a niche market, it is quickly moving mainstream and the equipment manufacturers recognize this.

With the introduction of compact guns like the LCP and P3AT in .380 comes an existing market of good SD ammo. The .380 round has been around for quite a long time, so quality ammunition is already available. Speer, Federal, Hornady, Remington, and seemingly every other manufacturer of good SD ammo already make .380 versions of their premium SD ammo.

I don't really see it as an inferior market niche. The upsurge in demand is apparent, and I believe it is more mainstream than you think.

[mr surveyor]

I think it is a very unrealistic view of the world to believe that everyone can carry a mid or full sized frame handgun 24/7, anywhere that is legal to carry. Well, as has been stated, many of us are in the professional world and occassionally the dress code requires more old school conventional attire, even if considered "casual". The term "casual" in this context does not apply shorts, baggy polo or "T" shirts, or untucked "cover" shirts. Personally, even though I do occassionally have to dress in a more professional manner, my normal dress code is for the field, and I can carry whatever I want depending on how much sweat, dirt, mud, or physical abuse I'm willing to subject my carry gun for the day to. Some days I'm meeting with city officials, clients or other professionals, or attending church, where my dress code requires a bit more refinement. In cool weather it's no problem to carry my Kibmer, Sig, or others IWB, or even OWB, wearing a buttoned sport coat or other appropriate cover. In warmer weather (at least 50% of the time in NE TX) conditions often require a bit more creative measures. Those measures result in my carry of a P3AT a great deal of the time, often in my left boot top.

My sympathies go out to all those that are so unfortunate as to not have a small, highly concealable handgun to carry in those instances that all but prohibit carry of the larger weapons.

surv

[tarkus]

The fact remains that we are left with these choices:

a. choose a gun that is easy to shoot accurately and draw/fire under pressure, but is too large to carry conveniently or comfortably so we leave it at home
b. choose a gun that is more difficult to use correctly, but is far more convenient and comfortable to carry so we carry it all the time
c. listen to the chorus of "experts" telling us that if we intend to carry a concealed handgun, we are going to have to change our wardrobe and lifestyle to fit, so instead don't even bother with it

d. Decide what's important to you and make choices that fit your priorities.

If people want to carry a .25 instead of a .45 that's their choice. Chances are they'll never need to shoot someone in self defense. Same as people who don't buy flood insurance will probably never need it. That's their choice. They got to enjoy the benefits in the good times and should accept the consequences in bad times.

[Dan20703]

Funny. As I read all these posts I think of my own guns both "mouse" and "full" sized. I practice with all of them and depending on attire, carry different ones at different times. I don't feel under gunned (mousegun) or overly confident (full sized) whenever I carry. I rely on my guns as a last resort to get me away from trouble. I rely more on my mental awareness, conscious decisions on where to go and not go, and decisions on what to say or not say in a situation. Hopefully I can avoid trouble better than the average person and that puts me at way better odds of living to see another day. Odds are that I will never have to shoot or draw a gun but regardless of how I'm dressed I want to make sure I am carrying something.

Caliber wars will last forever. It's all about shot placement!

[yerasimos]

Well, depending on what you mean by "mousegun", if you mean a compact, concealable gun (regardless of caliber) then I think it should be the other way around. Those willing to carry a medium-to-large-frame auto are going to be the "niche" and those likely to carry only a smaller compact pistol are the majority, I would think.

Sounds like the majority of instruction is aimed at the minority of users.

As I see it, only a minority of users pursue instruction. That minority may be more predisposed to using larger-format and larger-caliber handguns---or the instructors prompt their students to carry the larger guns as they do.

But you seem to be implying that equipping one's self for self defense with a useful concealed pistol is mutually exclusive to fashionable dress, but it is only so if we subscribe to the "mouseguns=useless" dogma. I don't want to be putting words in your mouth, but this is the impression I am getting. My point is that maybe more people would carry if they were given good advice about carrying a gun more appropriate for their style of dress.

Believe me, I have tried to get the two to work together, and I was not satisfied with the results. That being said, I am pretty picky and my criteria are pretty rigorous.

I can go to Saks 5th Ave and dress like Men's Health/GQ/Details try to tell us to dress, tuck in my shirt and wear a flimsy fashion belt, and slip a J-frame into the trouser pocket. Even if the gun does not print ridiculously through the fabric or the holster/gun break through the flimsy stitching, I do not really consider myself "ready" because the draw is occluded when seated and it requires a different motor skill compared to drawing from the belt, which I typically practice.

An open top holster, IWB or otherwise, in and of itself dictates a complete change of wardrobe for most people I know who are under the age of 40 and living in Central TX. That is probably 100% for women in that age bracket. In fact even with a small gun like a Kel-Tec or Kahr 9mm, small-of-the-back is just about the only carry method that would not have a huge impact on wardrobe for this crowd.

I would kindly suggest against carrying anything at 6 o'clock/small-of-the-back. Feel free to ask other people who are more respected here, and I expect they will convey the same idea.

Trouser pocket carry has its benefits and may work, given the right trousers, holster and handgun, but has serious liabilities, especially when seated. Consider what it offers, but do not get your expectations too high.

Again this gets back to "what is a mousegun". If you are talking about small calibre then I understand this statement. But you can get a Kahr PM-size gun in a .40 or 9mm and a CW/P size frame in a .45. Certainly the best handgun ammunition is available for 9mm thru .45, is it not?

If a pistol is chambered in something .380 ACP and smaller (or maybe make that 9mm Makarov?), whose exterior dimensions have been designed with greater emphasis upon ease of concealment and less emphasis upon optimizing gripping surface area, and it is not simply a chopped-down version of a larger handgun, I call it a mousegun. I call any derringer, or any mini-revolver, a mousegun.

The Kahrs you mentioned really do not completely qualify in my view, so arguably we have been exchanging at cross-purposes here. Honestly, I have not given them or Kel-Tecs serious consideration due to reliability issues. It seems as though you may have the knack (or the patience) to work these up to your satisfaction.

Stories of Walther PPK pistols turning into jam-o-matics at inopportune times further discourged any interest in mouseguns/small-format or other ultra-compact pistols---despite awareness of loads like the Winchester .380 ACP Ranger load.

I guess it is a combination of training influences, recurrent anecdotes of unreliability, perceived problems with in-fight weapon access and control, a degree of caliber snobbery (IDPA), and a lack of awareness of manufacturers' new products that turns away my interest from these guns.

[agbullet2k1]

I've enjoyed reading the well-worded comments so far, and I feel like I should throw in my short .02. I still haven't figured out what everyone is classifying as a "mousegun," but it seems like it's leaning toward smaller framed pistols. Running on that assumption, for the last 2 years, my primary carry has been a Glock 27, which, while not pocket sized, is definitely a lot smaller than average. I carried it IWB at 5:00, and managed to draw it just as quick as a full size gun from a OWB holster (with adequate practice). The best part about it though was that I could wear it with almost every outfit I have, from white tank tops to shirt and tie. All of this was done with just $20 worth of accessories. I don't think anyone will argue that .40 is a horrible self defense round, but the gun itself conceals as well as the Kahrs or Kel Tec 9's and .380's IMHO. At this point, it almost seems like this is becoming a question of "best defense caliber," because there are smaller frames that still pack the big punch of larger guns and can still be drawn quickly.

As for grip and comfort, I see women on this forum comparing guns to shoes a lot. Women own high heels, which can't be comfortable, but they work with their outfits. So just guessing, but for most women, it seems function overrules comfort when it comes to accessories.

[mr.72]

the Kahr 9mms I have shot have been 100% reliable. I don't have such high hopes for a Kel-Tec but they are 1/2 the price.

[Liberty]

I figure anything that the Brady Bunch hates so much has to be a good idea. It gives me pride to own the type of guns they just alittle bit harder to get banned. I own hi capacity assault handguns, I am beggining to believe that I need onof of them "Saturday Night Specials".
Does the Ruger LP qualify ? or does it have to be a .25 or smaller?

While I don't own a mouser, anyone carrying a mouse gun on their person and knows how to use to use it, is better armed than 99% of the public.