LEO Disarming Homeowner?

[texanjoker]

I think, as I posted in the thread on the shooting, that the answer is clear in the law. If you have a CHL, the law says that any officer may disarm you for his safety, your safety, or the safety of others. There is no limit in the law on the location. So, yes, an officer may disarm a CHL inside his house if they come into contact with you there for any reason.

I think the next logical question is if an officer has any legal right to disarm any person who is legally carrying under some other authority than a CHL.

I disagree. Charles has explained the authority issue many, many times before. While you may have a CHL, you are not carrying under its authority while on your own property.

No disrespect to Charles, but his opinion is that of an attorney. You can take attorneys for each side of the discussion and each will say why they have the correct answer. This happens every day in court. The street LEO is the one that will be disarming you in the field, and when it comes to their safety they can do so if they can articulate it. It is strongly suggested you do what they say and do not point your gun at the leo.

[Scott in Houston]

I think, as I posted in the thread on the shooting, that the answer is clear in the law. If you have a CHL, the law says that any officer may disarm you for his safety, your safety, or the safety of others. There is no limit in the law on the location. So, yes, an officer may disarm a CHL inside his house if they come into contact with you there for any reason.

I think the next logical question is if an officer has any legal right to disarm any person who is legally carrying under some other authority than a CHL.

I disagree. Charles has explained the authority issue many, many times before. While you may have a CHL, you are not carrying under its authority while on your own property.

No disrespect to Charles, but his opinion is that of an attorney. You can take attorneys for each side of the discussion and each will say why they have the correct answer. This happens every day in court. The street LEO is the one that will be disarming you in the field, and when it comes to their safety they can do so if they can articulate it. It is strongly suggested you do what they say and do not point your gun at the leo.

What if I'm not carrying concealed? At that point, I'm not carrying under the authority of my CHL. They may not even know that I have a CHL. They may never ask for ID if I'm answering my door (so I'd never have to admit I have a CHL or show it to them), because they know how I am and where I live. If the gun is not concealed, I"d clearly be carrying under the rights as the home owner (castle, etc.).
Then, the request to disarm would not be with the authority of any law behind it regarding CHL.

Now... I'm asking all this out of curiosity. In real life, I'd put the gun away on my own without being asked out of respect for the job they're doing and the threats they face daily.

[texanjoker]

I think, as I posted in the thread on the shooting, that the answer is clear in the law. If you have a CHL, the law says that any officer may disarm you for his safety, your safety, or the safety of others. There is no limit in the law on the location. So, yes, an officer may disarm a CHL inside his house if they come into contact with you there for any reason.

I think the next logical question is if an officer has any legal right to disarm any person who is legally carrying under some other authority than a CHL.

I disagree. Charles has explained the authority issue many, many times before. While you may have a CHL, you are not carrying under its authority while on your own property.

No disrespect to Charles, but his opinion is that of an attorney. You can take attorneys for each side of the discussion and each will say why they have the correct answer. This happens every day in court. The street LEO is the one that will be disarming you in the field, and when it comes to their safety they can do so if they can articulate it. It is strongly suggested you do what they say and do not point your gun at the leo.

What if I'm not carrying concealed? At that point, I'm not carrying under the authority of my CHL. They may not even know that I have a CHL. They may never ask for ID if I'm answering my door (so I'd never have to admit I have a CHL or show it to them), because they know how I am and where I live. If the gun is not concealed, I"d clearly be carrying under the rights as the home owner (castle, etc.).
Then, the request to disarm would not be with the authority of any law behind it regarding CHL.

Now... I'm asking all this out of curiosity. In real life, I'd put the gun away on my own without being asked out of respect for the job they're doing and the threats they face daily.

If they have a legal reason to "DETAIN" you they can disarm you for their safety. If not then won't. I am not sure about all these threads any everybody so worried about carrying a gun IFO the police. That is a common thread across various forums as well. People used to have some respect and things were much different.

[Scott in Houston]

I think, as I posted in the thread on the shooting, that the answer is clear in the law. If you have a CHL, the law says that any officer may disarm you for his safety, your safety, or the safety of others. There is no limit in the law on the location. So, yes, an officer may disarm a CHL inside his house if they come into contact with you there for any reason.

I think the next logical question is if an officer has any legal right to disarm any person who is legally carrying under some other authority than a CHL.

I disagree. Charles has explained the authority issue many, many times before. While you may have a CHL, you are not carrying under its authority while on your own property.

No disrespect to Charles, but his opinion is that of an attorney. You can take attorneys for each side of the discussion and each will say why they have the correct answer. This happens every day in court. The street LEO is the one that will be disarming you in the field, and when it comes to their safety they can do so if they can articulate it. It is strongly suggested you do what they say and do not point your gun at the leo.

What if I'm not carrying concealed? At that point, I'm not carrying under the authority of my CHL. They may not even know that I have a CHL. They may never ask for ID if I'm answering my door (so I'd never have to admit I have a CHL or show it to them), because they know how I am and where I live. If the gun is not concealed, I"d clearly be carrying under the rights as the home owner (castle, etc.).
Then, the request to disarm would not be with the authority of any law behind it regarding CHL.

Now... I'm asking all this out of curiosity. In real life, I'd put the gun away on my own without being asked out of respect for the job they're doing and the threats they face daily.

If they have a legal reason to "DETAIN" you they can disarm you for their safety. If not then won't. I am not sure about all these threads any everybody so worried about carrying a gun IFO the police. That is a common thread across various forums as well. People used to have some respect and things were much different.

I'm not sure where you are getting that there's no respect...all the posts I've read have been respectful and polite.

[srothstein]

I think, as I posted in the thread on the shooting, that the answer is clear in the law. If you have a CHL, the law says that any officer may disarm you for his safety, your safety, or the safety of others. There is no limit in the law on the location. So, yes, an officer may disarm a CHL inside his house if they come into contact with you there for any reason.

I think the next logical question is if an officer has any legal right to disarm any person who is legally carrying under some other authority than a CHL.

I disagree. Charles has explained the authority issue many, many times before. While you may have a CHL, you are not carrying under its authority while on your own property.

I agree with Charles on the authority under which you are carrying. I have said the same thing before, that you may have different authorities you carry under and you get to choose which applies.

But, as with the requirement to present your license when asked for ID, the law allowing an officer to disarm you mentions being a license holder but not the authority under which you are carrying. The exact wording of the law is:

Sec. 411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM. (a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.

It simply says the police officer may disarm a license holder. It places no restriction on the location or the authority by which the person is carrying. If it only applied to carrying under the authority of your CHL, then an officer could not disarm you in a traffic stop since you are not carrying under you CHL while inside your motor vehicle.

[goose]

I'm not sure where you are getting that there's no respect...all the posts I've read have been respectful and polite.

Civilians making sure that the checks and balances are in place to keep LEO in check are valid discussions. I believe that many LEO on this forum welcome such discussions because they are willing to trade some convenience on the job for our, and by default their freedoms and liberties. Those LEO will see no disrespect in the discussion. Paraphrasing you (not putting words into your mouth), there is a huge distance between checks and balances and then disrespect. The discussion is about a balancing act between liberties and safety.

[stevie_d_64]

Dose of reality time here...

I believe the odds of such a contact are rare, the fact is that whenever someone in Law Enforcement does have to make a cold contact with someone in their own home, it has to almost be done with some tact, and with the potential that the home owner WILL be armed after they knock on that front door...You as a home owner (A responsible, and mature gun-owner) should conduct yourself in the same manner...That should almost go unsaid...

I would first be a little upset if the knock came at 3am in the morning, and those LEO should know, with great confidence, that doing so invites the inevitable...So, I believe as citizens that own firearms, we should react within reason, and that after a few uncomfortable seconds, the panties on both side can, and should, be un-wadded so you can get through with the business at hand, if time permits...There are ALL sorts of variables, and everyone involved needs to remember that reasonable behavior (reaction) should be the first thing to happen...

Being open about it and saying the right thing in this instance would go a long way to calming the situation down, and lessen the chance for any additional tension to be placed into the intereaction...

"Officer(s), I would like to clear and safe my weapon, if you don't mind, I wasn't expecting you to be the ones knocking on my door at 3am, and I want to assure you that I want this to be as safe an interaction as can be had at this point..."

Sounds kinda verbose, but if said in a calm and mature manner, I bet a dollar to a donut hole that this would work in most situations...

Just my opinion...I always believe there are reasonable means to interact with Law Enforcement that go a long way in proving time and time again that armed citizens ARE very aware, and respectful of situations like this, and that we are not the problem...

[steveincowtown]

"Officer(s), I would like to clear and safe my weapon, if you don't mind, I wasn't expecting you to be the ones knocking on my door at 3am, and I want to assure you that I want this to be as safe an interaction as can be had at this point..."

Safe= in the holster. I can see touching your weapon as the point of the start of great confusion.

As for me and my house.....

Feel free to knock on my door anytime. I may answer, I may not.

If/when I do answer I will be armed (OWB in a holster at a min.) If the police or anyone else takes offense to that, they will be invited to leave my property.

No disrespect to any LEO, but my gun in my holster is no more dangerous than an LEOs gun in their holster. Someone else quoted an LEO encounter where the LEO said "Hey buddy, I have no problem with you sidearm...just don't show me yours and I won't show you mine."

If an LEO has approached me to gain information about a crime in which I have no involvement they will not treat me like a criminal by disarming me and expect me to answer any of their questions.

[texanjoker]

I think, as I posted in the thread on the shooting, that the answer is clear in the law. If you have a CHL, the law says that any officer may disarm you for his safety, your safety, or the safety of others. There is no limit in the law on the location. So, yes, an officer may disarm a CHL inside his house if they come into contact with you there for any reason.

I think the next logical question is if an officer has any legal right to disarm any person who is legally carrying under some other authority than a CHL.

I disagree. Charles has explained the authority issue many, many times before. While you may have a CHL, you are not carrying under its authority while on your own property.

No disrespect to Charles, but his opinion is that of an attorney. You can take attorneys for each side of the discussion and each will say why they have the correct answer. This happens every day in court. The street LEO is the one that will be disarming you in the field, and when it comes to their safety they can do so if they can articulate it. It is strongly suggested you do what they say and do not point your gun at the leo.

What if I'm not carrying concealed? At that point, I'm not carrying under the authority of my CHL. They may not even know that I have a CHL. They may never ask for ID if I'm answering my door (so I'd never have to admit I have a CHL or show it to them), because they know how I am and where I live. If the gun is not concealed, I"d clearly be carrying under the rights as the home owner (castle, etc.).
Then, the request to disarm would not be with the authority of any law behind it regarding CHL.

Now... I'm asking all this out of curiosity. In real life, I'd put the gun away on my own without being asked out of respect for the job they're doing and the threats they face daily.

If they have a legal reason to "DETAIN" you they can disarm you for their safety. If not then won't. I am not sure about all these threads any everybody so worried about carrying a gun IFO the police. That is a common thread across various forums as well. People used to have some respect and things were much different.

I'm not sure where you are getting that there's no respect...all the posts I've read have been respectful and polite.

Not referring to this forum at all. Just general real life interactions we LEO's face with the public. I started back in the 80's and it has slowly evolved into our new generation. Many don't have respect any more with their parents, teachers, bosses, LEO's, ect and it makes the job more difficult and dangerous for everybody, LEO and the public alike.

[texanjoker]

Where you are more likely to encounter an LEO at 03:00 IMO is in your backyard. I worked K9's in the city. When we had perimeters up we often went yard to yard in an area looking for the bad guy that was hunkered down. We were in fresh pursuit so I don't want this to turn into a 4th amendment issue as we could be there. We did not go and knock and wake up each house unless we found an open door/window to a house then we wanted to make sure they were OK. Occasionally we would have a home owner come out. Once in a while one came out armed. They ALL always went back inside when we told them what is up. It just wasn't an issue. Sometimes we needed them to secure their dogs. Funny how the bad guys always seemed to be in the yard with the dogs. The home owners would state no way they are in my yard, I have a big dog. They would put up their dog, and bam we find bad guy in the back. Homeowner would then state he needs a new dog

[EEllis]

"Officer(s), I would like to clear and safe my weapon, if you don't mind, I wasn't expecting you to be the ones knocking on my door at 3am, and I want to assure you that I want this to be as safe an interaction as can be had at this point..."

Safe= in the holster. I can see touching your weapon as the point of the start of great confusion.

As for me and my house.....

Feel free to knock on my door anytime. I may answer, I may not.

If/when I do answer I will be armed (OWB in a holster at a min.) If the police or anyone else takes offense to that, they will be invited to leave my property.

No disrespect to any LEO, but my gun in my holster is no more dangerous than an LEOs gun in their holster. Someone else quoted an LEO encounter where the LEO said "Hey buddy, I have no problem with you sidearm...just don't show me yours and I won't show you mine."

If an LEO has approached me to gain information about a crime in which I have no involvement they will not treat me like a criminal by disarming me and expect me to answer any of their questions.

If the officers can require your presence then they have the authority to disarm you. If they have a reason to think you may be involved in something they are investigating then they can give you lawful orders you must obey and disarming you is one of those orders. If they have a reason to question you then while they ask questions they have the authority to make the situation safe from their viewpoint. Sometimes the only way to know who is involved is to question multipul people so the idea that the police would know for a certainty that any person "has no involvement" before speaking with them seems a bit far fetched. Now that being said this like so much in law enforcement is pretty subjective and has more than a bit of grey area. It is certainly possible that Officers could go to far but clearly it is not something a person can judge while they are being interviewed. People should remember it isn't if it makes sense from our viewpoint it's whether it is reasonable from the officers belief based on their info at the time and of course their training, local laws, and dept policies. Basically you follow orders and if you think someone went to far you then look at your possible avenues for redress. I have personally demanded a supervisor to show up on a couple of occasions when dealing with police to address what I believed were inappropriate behavior but this would seem to be of a larger policy type situation that I would most likely address with the command of whatever dept at a later time if I had a real issue with what went on.

[steveincowtown]

Basically you follow orders and if you think someone went to far you then look at your possible avenues for redress.

Good point. To avoid that interaction I think the complete scenario should play out like this.

(Knock, Knock) FWPD, we would like to talk to you about one of your neighbors.

(Knock, Knock) FWPD, please come to the door.

(Knock, Knock) FWPD, Hello?


(Chirp, Chirp, Chirp<---sound of crickets)

[bizarrenormality]

The sound of a dog barking is better than a cricket chirping. Even if it's a recording

[Sangiovese]

As for me and my house.....

Feel free to knock on my door anytime. I may answer, I may not.

If/when I do answer I will be armed (OWB in a holster at a min.) If the police or anyone else takes offense to that, they will be invited to leave my property.

No disrespect to any LEO, but my gun in my holster is no more dangerous than an LEOs gun in their holster. Someone else quoted an LEO encounter where the LEO said "Hey buddy, I have no problem with you sidearm...just don't show me yours and I won't show you mine."

If an LEO has approached me to gain information about a crime in which I have no involvement they will not treat me like a criminal by disarming me and expect me to answer any of their questions.

I'm happy to open my door and speak with a police officer if he thinks that the conversation may be helpful. If my .45 sitting securely in its holster on my hip makes him nervous, I'll be happy to close my door so he doesn't need to see it anymore.

[geoelectro]

A couple of years ago we got a new city councilman who wanted to clean up the neighborhood. Gus, across the street had some old cars that were tagged to be moved. They gave Gus 2 weeks to get them moved. 7 days later they came back saying they were going to be towed and he was going to be fined. He argued with them because of the change of time limit. He was working on moving them but they came back too soon. The argument got heated and old Gus said something like "I guess I'll have to shoot someone then". Well, 5 minutes later there were nearly 10 cop cars there. They confiscated his guns and said he could get them back in 30 days.

He never brandished a gun and didn't have one on his person. Just tough talk from a 70- something year old codger.

When I found out about it he told me which guns they took. I said, you have more guns than that...he said, I know!

Anyway, 30 days later he got them back.

Geo