Texas Department of Family and Protective Services

[chasfm11]

No, you misunderstand the meaning of "public". Public refers to buildings owned or operated by the government. Churches are, by Constitutional declaration (the First Amendment), strictly private.

Right. Now I remember why I'm not a lawyer - I can never keep this all straight.

So, FPS can regulate PRIVATE property that is open to the public. Let's not go into the day care in the home,which FPS does regulate but which has different rules. If I have a building that is not my home and I dedicate it to being a child care for my own kids, I'm not subject to regulation, correct? My property, my kids, my control. As soon as I open it to other people's kids, FPS can control what I do, down to the inches of mulch under the slide in the playground if I have one. And if it were a standalone building, they could and, according to their email would force me to put up signs banning firearms. Now a question: A search of Texas3006.com only turned up one place in Austin that looked like a daycare, why aren't there more? Let's don't go down the path that Texas3006 is not complete - I know that. I also know that there are 100s of churches in my area that have day care and should be regulated by FPS. None yet are posted, at least that I've seen. Following that logic, every one of the non-religious child care places should already be posted, and I don't see those on any list either. I drove by two of them this morning - no signs.

I'm not trying to boil the ocean here but just trying to understand the situation that our church is facing. I see that other churches have posted 30,07 signs My fear is that if our church did the same, the follow up question from FPS would be "where is the 30.06 sign?" since they regulate and prohibit both. I'm trying to separate this from Constitutional aspects of the terms involved since our church does not have the resources to take this to court to fight a Constitutional question. I simply want to understand to what is necessary to stay off of FPS's radar, on firearms regulations or anything else that they list.

[rotor]

You are looking at Texas Administrative Code, Chapter 746 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR CHILD-CARE CENTERS. If you run such a center you should probably run out right now and post a 30.06 and 30.07 sign. If you don't post these signs you, the owner of the child care center, could be in violation of their rules. This does not appear to be nuclear science as other members are suggesting. This only involves a LTC if he/she enters a posted child-care center or if not posted is told to leave. This obviously makes a child-care center a gun free zone unless the center is in a private dwelling where guns are then locked and secured (essentially gun free). Not nuclear science. How many people here run child-care centers?

The OP for one...

ScottDLS, I got that and if he wants to continue operating he either needs a 30.06/30.07 but not just a gun buster sign. The violation of the rule is the child-care center, not the LTC carrier sans proper signage. He risks his child-care license. But this is not a topic for LTC holders, it should be moved to a forum that caters to child-care centers. We can then just complain about another business that has posted and somebody will want to go into the business and argue with the manager.

[ScottDLS]

You are looking at Texas Administrative Code, Chapter 746 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR CHILD-CARE CENTERS. If you run such a center you should probably run out right now and post a 30.06 and 30.07 sign. If you don't post these signs you, the owner of the child care center, could be in violation of their rules. This does not appear to be nuclear science as other members are suggesting. This only involves a LTC if he/she enters a posted child-care center or if not posted is told to leave. This obviously makes a child-care center a gun free zone unless the center is in a private dwelling where guns are then locked and secured (essentially gun free). Not nuclear science. How many people here run child-care centers?

The OP for one...

ScottDLS, I got that and if he wants to continue operating he either needs a 30.06/30.07 but not just a gun buster sign. The violation of the rule is the child-care center, not the LTC carrier sans proper signage. He risks his child-care license. But this is not a topic for LTC holders, it should be moved to a forum that caters to child-care centers. We can then just complain about another business that has posted and somebody will want to go into the business and argue with the manager.

What if the Health Department said that all restaurants must post 30.06/07 or lose their food service license? Or TABC for that matter? There is nothing inherently dangerous about carrying on or about MY person at a daycare, arguably even if I am a worker there, but for sure as a visitor.

[rotor]

You are looking at Texas Administrative Code, Chapter 746 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR CHILD-CARE CENTERS. If you run such a center you should probably run out right now and post a 30.06 and 30.07 sign. If you don't post these signs you, the owner of the child care center, could be in violation of their rules. This does not appear to be nuclear science as other members are suggesting. This only involves a LTC if he/she enters a posted child-care center or if not posted is told to leave. This obviously makes a child-care center a gun free zone unless the center is in a private dwelling where guns are then locked and secured (essentially gun free). Not nuclear science. How many people here run child-care centers?

The OP for one...

ScottDLS, I got that and if he wants to continue operating he either needs a 30.06/30.07 but not just a gun buster sign. The violation of the rule is the child-care center, not the LTC carrier sans proper signage. He risks his child-care license. But this is not a topic for LTC holders, it should be moved to a forum that caters to child-care centers. We can then just complain about another business that has posted and somebody will want to go into the business and argue with the manager.

What if the Health Department said that all restaurants must post 30.06/07 or lose their food service license? Or TABC for that matter? There is nothing inherently dangerous about carrying on or about MY person at a daycare, arguably even if I am a worker there, but for sure as a visitor.

ScottDLS, I agree with you completely and I think the regs are just stupid, both the Texas Admin Code and TABC codes. I am just saying that if the OP wants to keep running a child-care center he needs to follow the regs or possible be shut down. It would appear to me that as obnoxious as it sounds he should post 30.06 and 30.07.

[rotor]

ScottDLS, I thought about it even more and probable signage needed is 30.06, 30.07 and a sign saying
firearms, hunting knives, bows and arrows, and other weapons are prohibited

as 30.06 and 30.07 just cover LTC holders. Do you agree?

[ScottDLS]

ScottDLS, I thought about it even more and probable signage needed is 30.06, 30.07 and a sign saying
firearms, hunting knives, bows and arrows, and other weapons are prohibited

as 30.06 and 30.07 just cover LTC holders. Do you agree?

Yes, this is why I think they (FPS) lack the authority to require signs.

[Pawpaw]

If they require you post the signs to keep your license, that doesn't prevent you from giving written permission to carry concealed to anyone that shows you their LTC, does it?

[baldeagle]

You are looking at Texas Administrative Code, Chapter 746 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR CHILD-CARE CENTERS. If you run such a center you should probably run out right now and post a 30.06 and 30.07 sign. If you don't post these signs you, the owner of the child care center, could be in violation of their rules. This does not appear to be nuclear science as other members are suggesting. This only involves a LTC if he/she enters a posted child-care center or if not posted is told to leave. This obviously makes a child-care center a gun free zone unless the center is in a private dwelling where guns are then locked and secured (essentially gun free). Not nuclear science. How many people here run child-care centers?

How do you figure that? There's nothing in their rules that require the signs. And there's nothing in the Penal Code that requires the signs. I think you are mistaken. I think it's very unclear if you can carry there or not, and I certainly wouldn't want to be the test case. The argument in court would be that the agency rule trumps your right to carry, and you have no law to point to to assert that you did have that right.

I think this is an area of the law that needs to be cleared up in this next legislative session.

I wish Charles would chime in here and give us his thoughts. All this speculation is not helpful.

[gljjt]

Is their a crime and penalty for this anywhere but the penal code (30.06/07 violation)? If not, I wouldn't worry. Isn't administrative code by definition non-criminal stuff?

[G.A. Heath]

The reason license holders need to worry about this is because any state agency that gets a little anti-gun can point to this as a basis to create rules forcing businesses to ban firearms. While the posting of businesses has traditionally been the decision of the business it becomes an issue for us if an agency tells them "Post this or we will shut you down."

I know I have been researching this and I have sent an email with very specific questions to the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services. I am looking forward to their response and I plan to follow up with an ORR if they do not give me satisfactory answers. Once I have those answers or the response to an ORR I will share anything I get with Charles just in case it proves useful to the NRA/TSRA legislative efforts.

For the record as of this morning I have no less than 4 inquiries with county or state bodies for information. Each of which has potential for a follow up with an ORR and I suspect at least one will require it.

[rotor]

You are looking at Texas Administrative Code, Chapter 746 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR CHILD-CARE CENTERS. If you run such a center you should probably run out right now and post a 30.06 and 30.07 sign. If you don't post these signs you, the owner of the child care center, could be in violation of their rules. This does not appear to be nuclear science as other members are suggesting. This only involves a LTC if he/she enters a posted child-care center or if not posted is told to leave. This obviously makes a child-care center a gun free zone unless the center is in a private dwelling where guns are then locked and secured (essentially gun free). Not nuclear science. How many people here run child-care centers?

How do you figure that? There's nothing in their rules that require the signs. And there's nothing in the Penal Code that requires the signs. I think you are mistaken. I think it's very unclear if you can carry there or not, and I certainly wouldn't want to be the test case. The argument in court would be that the agency rule trumps your right to carry, and you have no law to point to to assert that you did have that right.

I think this is an area of the law that needs to be cleared up in this next legislative session.

I wish Charles would chime in here and give us his thoughts. All this speculation is not helpful.

baldegale, I don't think it is a question of "can you carry there". I think it is a question of can they keep their child-care license if they don't restrict carry of knives, firearms, bows and whatever else they had in their rules. This is not a LTC topic but an interpretation of Texas child-care rules.

[MeMelYup]

It appears that we need to change "LGC §229.001. FIREARMS; AIR GUNS; KNIVES; EXPLOSIVES," where it has municipalities to municipalities or agencies.

This would stop FCPS from requiring 30.06 or 30.07 signage.

[rotor]

It appears that we need to change "LGC §229.001. FIREARMS; AIR GUNS; KNIVES; EXPLOSIVES," where it has municipalities to municipalities or agencies.

This would stop FCPS from requiring 30.06 or 30.07 signage.

If you think about it though it is not just 30.06 or 30.07, it's all firearms, knives, bows, weapons, etc. that they are banning.

[JALLEN]

What if the Health Department said that all restaurants must post 30.06/07 or lose their food service license? Or TABC for that matter? There is nothing inherently dangerous about carrying on or about MY person at a daycare, arguably even if I am a worker there, but for sure as a visitor.

It for the children. It always is.

[G.A. Heath]

On Friday I sent the following question to the Department of Family and Protective Services:

I host a podcast on Gun Rights In Texas and have learned that your agency is reportedly requiring Child Care businesses to post signage banning the licensed carry of firearms by the public. I am aware of the rules published In the Administrative code and I am currently researching that. In regards to this issue I have a few questions. 1. Is it true that Child Care Facilities on private property are being required to post 30.06 and 30.07 signs? 2. Are such Facilities on PUBLIC property being required to post such signage in violation of the Government Code prohibiting them from doing so? 3. Has there been any review of this rule in light of recent legislation and Attorney Generals opinions?

Today I got this response:

Thank you for reaching out to child care licensing. Fire arms have always been prohibited in a licensed operation and that did not change with the new legislation. Operations have never been required to post signs regarding fire arms and that did not change with the 84th legislation. We have had a number of operations asking us if they can post signs. This is their own decision and all we have recommended is that they ensure they are incompliance with TPC 30.06 or 30.07 if it applies to their program. Child care licensing has not required signage previously and we do not with the new bills. I have copied our rule below as it is the same one that has been in effect since 2003.

Essentially my understanding is that they do not require the posting of specific signage, but the rule is in effect and they will punish a licensed operation should they knowingly allow someone to carry.
Of course the rule is:

RULE §746.3707 Are firearms or other weapons allowed at my child-care center?

(a) Law enforcement officials who are trained and certified to carry a firearm on duty may have firearms or ammunition on the premises of the child-care center.
(b) For all other persons, firearms, hunting knives, bows and arrows, and other weapons are prohibited on the premises of the child-care center, unless the child-care center is also your residence.
(c) Firearms, hunting knives, bows and arrows, and other weapons kept on the premises of a child-care center located in your home must remain in a locked cabinet inaccessible to children during all hours of operation.
(d) Ammunition must be kept in a separate locked cabinet and inaccessible to children during all hours of operation.

This rule is not something passed by the legislature, and in my opinion shows why we need to expand pre-emption.