Parking Lot Postings

[srothstein]

I have a CHL/LTC. Do those signs prohibit me from legally carrying into those stores? I assume they prohibit carrying in the parking lots.....?

I don't think I've ever heard a definitive answer to this question.

This is actually fairly simple to answer. If the signs apply to the stores or not is actually irrelevant. Assume for now that the signs apply just to the parking lot. You cannot get out of your car and carry, so how would you legally get your weapon to the store?

I think it is going to be fairly easy to determine. If you see a sign posted, assume it covers all of the property behind the sign until you get to some marker that indicates it is another person's property. This could be a fence, a road or street, a difference in the way the grass is kept on the yard portion, etc. It is much more likely that you can assume it applies until you pass a sign on the other side saying that people coming in from that side cannot carry.

Think of it like a school zone. You just passed a sign with the flashing lights indicating an active school zone. How do you know when you are out of the zone? When you pass a sign for the other direction telling them to slow down or some other marker on the road.

I think this would ultimately have to be determined by the jury and I would certainly not want to trust my freedom to getting people to agree with me that the sign is too vague for me to know.

[K.Mooneyham]

I'd like to know where all these posted giant parking lots with multiple businesses are located, or is this just some kind of a hypothetical at this point? I've become a "hick in the sticks", and I don't get to the big city much anymore, so it sure would be nice to know.

[ScottDLS]

I have a CHL/LTC. Do those signs prohibit me from legally carrying into those stores? I assume they prohibit carrying in the parking lots.....?

I don't think I've ever heard a definitive answer to this question.

This is actually fairly simple to answer. If the signs apply to the stores or not is actually irrelevant. Assume for now that the signs apply just to the parking lot. You cannot get out of your car and carry, so how would you legally get your weapon to the store?

I think it is going to be fairly easy to determine. If you see a sign posted, assume it covers all of the property behind the sign until you get to some marker that indicates it is another person's property. This could be a fence, a road or street, a difference in the way the grass is kept on the yard portion, etc. It is much more likely that you can assume it applies until you pass a sign on the other side saying that people coming in from that side cannot carry.

Think of it like a school zone. You just passed a sign with the flashing lights indicating an active school zone. How do you know when you are out of the zone? When you pass a sign for the other direction telling them to slow down or some other marker on the road.

I think this would ultimately have to be determined by the jury and I would certainly not want to trust my freedom to getting people to agree with me that the sign is too vague for me to know.

Where are all these places where people get arrested for $200 class C misdemeanor tickets and then can't bond out until they have their jury trial in municipal or JP court?

I've been called to exactly one JP/Municipal court for jury duty in 25 years of living in Texas, but they kicked me out during "voir dire" probably cuz they saw my driving record and the dangerous "perp" was up on "allowing an unlicensed driver to operate a motor vehicle under his control". (His license was suspended and he let his 14 year old drive him... )

[Solaris]

If I try to CC a gun into a secure area of an airport in Texas, and get caught, they have to let me leave with gun and no charges.

But if try CC a gun in the parking lot of the local gas station, and get caught I can be arrested on the spot.

But by legal statute and such and such, if you attempt/try, you haven't broken the law yet because you didn't make it into the secured area yet. If you were to be found with a gun inside the secured area you would/would be arrested on the spot.

Negative. attempting to bring a gun into a Secure Area (any place after TSA checks your ID) is a violation of both State and Federal Law. There are rarely Federal LEs at these checkpoints, so Federal arrest is unlikely. As for state law, the exemption applies only to LTC, if you have no LTC you get arrested as Barry Switzer found out. As did Sen. Juan “Chuy” Hinojosa-D, Drew Darby-R, Eric Laffoon, and Shemane Nugent who had CHL, to name a few, was also arrested before this law went into effect:

(e-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the actor:
(1) possessed, at the screening checkpoint for the secured area, a concealed handgun that the actor was licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code; and
(2) exited the screening checkpoint for the secured area immediately upon completion of the required screening processes and notification that the actor possessed the handgun.
(e-2) A peace officer investigating conduct that may constitute an offense under Subsection (a)(5) and that consists only of an actor's possession of a concealed handgun that the actor is licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, may not arrest the actor for the offense unless:

[ScottDLS]

If I try to CC a gun into a secure area of an airport in Texas, and get caught, they have to let me leave with gun and no charges.

But if try CC a gun in the parking lot of the local gas station, and get caught I can be arrested on the spot.

But by legal statute and such and such, if you attempt/try, you haven't broken the law yet because you didn't make it into the secured area yet. If you were to be found with a gun inside the secured area you would/would be arrested on the spot.

Negative. attempting to bring a gun into a Secure Area (any place after TSA checks your ID) is a violation of both State and Federal Law. There are rarely Federal LEs at these checkpoints, so Federal arrest is unlikely. As for state law, the exemption applies only to LTC, if you have no LTC you get arrested as Barry Switzer found out. As did Sen. Juan “Chuy” Hinojosa-D, Drew Darby-R, Eric Laffoon, and Shemane Nugent who had CHL, to name a few, was also arrested before this law went into effect:

(e-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the actor:
(1) possessed, at the screening checkpoint for the secured area, a concealed handgun that the actor was licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code; and
(2) exited the screening checkpoint for the secured area immediately upon completion of the required screening processes and notification that the actor possessed the handgun.
(e-2) A peace officer investigating conduct that may constitute an offense under Subsection (a)(5) and that consists only of an actor's possession of a concealed handgun that the actor is licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, may not arrest the actor for the offense unless:

What is the Federal law that makes it illegal to have a gun in the secure area? Is there a specific exemption for LEO, security guards, etc?

[SMRoot]

I'd like to know where all these posted giant parking lots with multiple businesses are located, or is this just some kind of a hypothetical at this point? I've become a "hick in the sticks", and I don't get to the big city much anymore, so it sure would be nice to know.

This was mostly a hypothetical. I've read the law, taken the class, and passed the test. Now I'm trying to apply that to things I see in the real world and then expand that to some "what-if" scenarios. The parking lot at my work was posted and I just wondered, extrapolating that to the mall parking lot, how that would work.

I learned a bit in this thread. For example, I didn't realize that when I walk up to a posting at the front door of a business, that I've violated the law as soon as I've read the sign. Now, I've been given "effective notice" and i'm carrying on the property - and will have to continue carrying until I can return to my car.

[Keith B]

I'd like to know where all these posted giant parking lots with multiple businesses are located, or is this just some kind of a hypothetical at this point? I've become a "hick in the sticks", and I don't get to the big city much anymore, so it sure would be nice to know.

This was mostly a hypothetical. I've read the law, taken the class, and passed the test. Now I'm trying to apply that to things I see in the real world and then expand that to some "what-if" scenarios. The parking lot at my work was posted and I just wondered, extrapolating that to the mall parking lot, how that would work.

I learned a bit in this thread. For example, I didn't realize that when I walk up to a posting at the front door of a business, that I've violated the law as soon as I've read the sign. Now, I've been given "effective notice" and i'm carrying on the property - and will have to continue carrying until I can return to my car.

In the case of a mall parking lot, it is 'one business', that is the company that owns the mall. All store space is leased. SO, the posting authority is the mall owner and it would be valid for the parking lot and the mall in its entirety.

And, as stated, once you have read the sign, it does apply to property, so you must turn around and leave the property.

[Solaris]

What is the Federal law that makes it illegal to have a gun in the secure area? Is there a specific exemption for LEO, security guards, etc?

49 U.S. Code § 46505 - Carrying a weapon or explosive on an aircraft

Keep in mind there is a host of Case Law and CFR further defining it dating back to like 1970 or so.

[ScottDLS]

I'd like to know where all these posted giant parking lots with multiple businesses are located, or is this just some kind of a hypothetical at this point? I've become a "hick in the sticks", and I don't get to the big city much anymore, so it sure would be nice to know.

This was mostly a hypothetical. I've read the law, taken the class, and passed the test. Now I'm trying to apply that to things I see in the real world and then expand that to some "what-if" scenarios. The parking lot at my work was posted and I just wondered, extrapolating that to the mall parking lot, how that would work.

I learned a bit in this thread. For example, I didn't realize that when I walk up to a posting at the front door of a business, that I've violated the law as soon as I've read the sign. Now, I've been given "effective notice" and i'm carrying on the property - and will have to continue carrying until I can return to my car.

In the case of a mall parking lot, it is 'one business', that is the company that owns the mall. All store space is leased. SO, the posting authority is the mall owner and it would be valid for the parking lot and the mall in its entirety.

And, as stated, once you have read the sign, it does apply to property, so you must turn around and leave the property.

If the mall posted the doors to the building and not the parking lot, it arguably would be OK to walk up to the entrance that is posted. If they want to post the parking lot property, then it's reasonable to expect them to post the parking lot itself and not just the building.

[Keith B]

If the mall posted the doors to the building and not the parking lot, it arguably would be OK to walk up to the entrance that is posted. If they want to post the parking lot property, then it's reasonable to expect them to post the parking lot itself and not just the building.

That would only be an assumption that the owner only meant the building was off-limits. Technically, if the property is posted anywhere, then the while property is off-limits. The penal code does not refer to anything but 'property'. Once you receive notice, even at the building doors, then you have to vacate property. However, you could put your firearm back in your vehicle and not carry under authority of your LTC and be legal.

[ScottDLS]

What is the Federal law that makes it illegal to have a gun in the secure area? Is there a specific exemption for LEO, security guards, etc?

49 U.S. Code § 46505- Carrying a weapon or explosive on an aircraft

Keep in mind there is a host of Case Law and CFR further defining it dating back to like 1970 or so.

The terminal area of the airport is not an aircraft, which is why I specifically framed the question that way. You can reasonably argue that attempting to bypass TSA checkpoint with a weapon is "attempting to get on" an aircraft, but likely the reason that people never get charged federally is because it would require "intent" not just negligence like Barry...

[ScottDLS]

If the mall posted the doors to the building and not the parking lot, it arguably would be OK to walk up to the entrance that is posted. If they want to post the parking lot property, then it's reasonable to expect them to post the parking lot itself and not just the building.

That would only be an assumption that the owner only meant the building was off-limits. Technically, if the property is posted anywhere, then the while property is off-limits. The penal code does not refer to anything but 'property'. Once you receive notice, even at the building doors, then you have to vacate property. However, you could put your firearm back in your vehicle and not carry under authority of your LTC and be legal.

The statute requires you to receive notice that the "entry is prohibited", then remain there. To flip it around, the prosecutor has to prove, at trial in JP/municipal court, beyond a reasonable doubt....that you "received notice" that entry to the PARKING LOT was prohibited and that you remained there, outside of your car. Or if you really want to get technical, you could open carry up to the building and then when you see the 30.07 at every entrance to the BUILDINGS, you could open carry back to your car to put the gun away, assuming that the 30.06 on the door covers the parking lot too.

[Keith B]

If the mall posted the doors to the building and not the parking lot, it arguably would be OK to walk up to the entrance that is posted. If they want to post the parking lot property, then it's reasonable to expect them to post the parking lot itself and not just the building.

That would only be an assumption that the owner only meant the building was off-limits. Technically, if the property is posted anywhere, then the while property is off-limits. The penal code does not refer to anything but 'property'. Once you receive notice, even at the building doors, then you have to vacate property. However, you could put your firearm back in your vehicle and not carry under authority of your LTC and be legal.

The statute requires you to receive notice that the "entry is prohibited", then remain there. To flip it around, the prosecutor has to prove, at trial in JP/municipal court, beyond a reasonable doubt....that you "received notice" that entry to the PARKING LOT was prohibited and that you remained there, outside of your car. Or if you really want to get technical, you could open carry up to the building and then when you see the 30.07 at every entrance to the BUILDINGS, you could open carry back to your car to put the gun away, assuming that the 30.06 on the door covers the parking lot too.

It's semantics. It clearly states 'property', so it could be argued either way. Without case law, it could be ruled as either one of us has stated. Bottom line, I am not going to be parading around outside of a building on the parking lot open carrying if the doors of the building are posted. You are probably going to get a visit from a LEO who decides you are on property and had received notice.

[Solaris]

What is the Federal law that makes it illegal to have a gun in the secure area? Is there a specific exemption for LEO, security guards, etc?

49 U.S. Code § 46505- Carrying a weapon or explosive on an aircraft

Keep in mind there is a host of Case Law and CFR further defining it dating back to like 1970 or so.

The terminal area of the airport is not an aircraft, which is why I specifically framed the question that way.

Hence why I wrote "Keep in mind there is a host of Case Law and CFR further defining it dating back to like 1970 or so."

[ScottDLS]

What is the Federal law that makes it illegal to have a gun in the secure area? Is there a specific exemption for LEO, security guards, etc?

49 U.S. Code § 46505- Carrying a weapon or explosive on an aircraft

Keep in mind there is a host of Case Law and CFR further defining it dating back to like 1970 or so.

The terminal area of the airport is not an aircraft, which is why I specifically framed the question that way.

Hence why I wrote "Keep in mind there is a host of Case Law and CFR further defining it dating back to like 1970 or so."

If only it were so for GFSZA !!!

Seriously, if you dig into CFR I think you're going to find a bunch of regulations relating to the security standards that the States/Airport Authorities/Airlines must adhere to in implementing the prohibition of guns on aircraft, particularly scheduled passenger transportation aircraft. But I don't think you'll find anything applying the statute specifically to carrying in the terminal, which is why nobody gets charged with it (49 U.S. Code § 46505). Case law addressing this would have to be at appellate level to be controlling, but maybe there's a federal district court case out there somewhere that ruled on this particular nuance...

ETA: How many angels can dance on a (firing) pin.