CHLer arrested in improperly posted hospital

[Keith B]

I suppose if they consulted the county DA and the DA said go ahead with the case, it must have been, which is unfortunate for her

I don't know about this. If they are interpreting the non-compliant posting on the door as 'notice', then the written notice may have also been non-compliant.

If what the Chief wrote about her location and the prior notice is factual, then she is definately going to be out of a job. I woudl also question her judgement in carrying in that facility without working out some method of securing the weapon that was agreed to by the powers that be.

No matter what, this is definatley going to be a test case that we will ALL be interested in the facts and the outcome.

[Mike1951]

I just received the same reply from Chief Flory.

[Commander]

Lt Roberts comments in the Channel 8 report that "there are no exceptions" to carrying in a hospital tends to indicate that there remains a lack of knowledge about CHL laws by Bedford PD. In his explanation of this case, Chief Flory may have overlooked the concern of many over this mis-statement of fact.

If in fact, the Licensee did receive prior written notice, then she was definitely in the wrong. This case will hinge on if she did receive notice and if so, did it conform to the wording specifically required. Outside of the legal trappings, her judgement will be called into question as well.

The report stated that she had been an employee for over seven years and a CHL holder for two years. What occured last week that brought this to a head? Obviously someone either saw the gun in her purse or had knowledge that it was there. Instead of handling it internally, why was Bedford PD called? If this was the first time that her handgun became knowledge to her employer, why not send her home and instruct her to come back tomorrow without her gun? Suspend her for a period of time? or just terminate her on the spot? (which they apparently did) Its very possible that there may be more "issues" with this employee than are publicly known.

[srothstein]

What "other sign" are you talking about, and how would this other sign apply to a CHL holder? It has been my understanding for quite some time that the only two signs a CHL holder has to pay attention to are a 30.06 sign and a 51% sign, that's it.

One of the signs I refer to is the one that every hospital and nursing home in the state is required by law to post. Under the Government Code, Section 411.204, they must post at each entrance a sign with the same wording as the 51 sign but without the red 51.

With this law, which is contradictory to 46.035, it appears to still forbid CHL's from carrying in a hospital. If they had this sign posted, then the city and officer would have a defense from a civil suit due to the nature of the law.

The other sign I refer to is what they appear to have (from another post), which is a short sign saying no guns allowed. This is the same as a ghost buster sign and is totally invalid.

Given the sign does not match either statute, there is clearly no case. I am just concerned about the conflict in the GC wording maybe biting a CHL until the law is clarified, either by case law or the legislature.

I think this case will be dropped by the D.A., and I recommend a suit against the PD for civil rights violations. I also recommend an expungement of the case from her records, which is a second special lawsuit.

[Commander]

What "other sign" are you talking about, and how would this other sign apply to a CHL holder? It has been my understanding for quite some time that the only two signs a CHL holder has to pay attention to are a 30.06 sign and a 51% sign, that's it.

One of the signs I refer to is the one that every hospital and nursing home in the state is required by law to post. Under the Government Code, Section 411.204, they must post at each entrance a sign with the same wording as the 51 sign but without the red 51.

The nursing home where my Mother lives only posts a non-compliant (letters less than 1/4" tall) 30.06 sign. The sign that I have seen at Hospitals and was shown in the Channel 8 report is no where to be seen.

[txinvestigator]

Given the sign does not match either statute, there is clearly no case. I am just concerned about the conflict in the GC wording maybe biting a CHL until the law is clarified, either by case law or the legislature.

I think this case will be dropped by the D.A., and I recommend a suit against the PD for civil rights violations. I also recommend an expungement of the case from her records, which is a second special lawsuit.

She was not arrested for violating the sign, she was arrested for violating policy that she was given notice of. See my post regarding the response from the Police Chief. They consulted the DA already. BTW, this was a psychiatric hospital where even LEOs must disarm.

[WildBill]

Has anyone seen anything in the print media about this?

[HooG19]

One of the signs I refer to is the one that every hospital and nursing home in the state is required by law to post. Under the Government Code, Section 411.204, they must post at each entrance a sign with the same wording as the 51 sign but without the red 51.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't said "51%" sign simply a 30.06 sign with a red 5" tall "51"?

According to § 411.204, they MAY post a 30.06 sign without the red 51. No where in that statute does it say that the signed is required.

§ 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES. (a) A
business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28,
32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent
or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code,
shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises
a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety
Code, or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and
Safety Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the
hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with
the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that
the sign include on its face the number "51".

(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must
give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a
person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the
premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block
letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the
number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height.
The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible
to the public.

(d) A business that has a permit or license issued under the
Alcoholic Beverage Code and that is not required to display a sign
under this section may be required to display a sign under Section
11.041 or 61.11, Alcoholic Beverage Code.

(e) This section does not apply to a business that has a food
and beverage certificate issued under the Alcoholic Beverage Code.

With that, can someone show me where it is stated that hospitals MUST post a 30.06 sign at all entrances?

[txinvestigator]

You are confusing the 30.06 sign with the 411 sign. No one is ever required to post a 30.06 sign, but 411.204(b) requires hospitals to post the sign listed in 411.204(c). The use of the word SHALL makes it a requierment.

§ 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES

b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety
Code, or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and
Safety Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the
hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with
the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that
the sign include on its face the number "51".

c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must
give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a
person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the
premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block
letters at least one inch in height

However, the sign means nothing to a CHL holder. Only a 30.06 sign matters to a CHL holder.

A 51% sign is NOT a 30.06 sign with a 51 on it.




here is the wording of a 30.06 sign;

Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun

[CHL/LEO]

our own Bedford Police Officers are not allowed to carry weapons; they must secure them
at the door even if we are responding to a disturbance.

This sounds pretty absurd to me. I've booked many a person in to Parkland's Psych ward over the years and yes, we do have to secure our weapons in lock boxes prior to entering with our prisoner. But, if there was a disturbance at that location and we responded, I can assure you that I would not be securing my weapon in those boxes. They have plenty of orderlies at that location to deal with out of control patients. If they are overwhelmed or incapacitated then I'm not going in there without any tools to deal with the situation.

[HooG19]

You are confusing the 30.06 sign with the 411 sign. No one is ever required to post a 30.06 sign, but 411.204(b) requires hospitals to post the sign listed in 411.204(c). The use of the word SHALL makes it a requierment.

§ 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES

b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety
Code, or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and
Safety Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the
hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with
the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that
the sign include on its face the number "51".

c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must
give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a
person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the
premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block
letters at least one inch in height

However, the sign means nothing to a CHL holder. Only a 30.06 sign matters to a CHL holder.

A 51% sign is NOT a 30.06 sign with a 51 on it.




here is the wording of a 30.06 sign;

Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun

Thank you for the clarification, I had never actually seen a 51% sign as I do not frequent those establishments and rarely see 30.06 signs.

[srothstein]

I am just curious, are you guys securing your weapons just because it is hospital policy (and to be nice), or are you securing them under a statute or departmental policy?

Both to be nice and out of common sense. The one area you do not want a weapon is a pysch ward. They may do anything unpredictably, and many seem to have superhuman strength while they are also feeling no pain. Given that, weapon control and retention would be much harder.

But I have carried into the emergency detention psych ward at University Hospital in San Antonio, both when taking a prisoner in and when responding to a call for help. In each case of a call, there was simply no time to secure it and still be there in time to help. Twice, when detaining someone who was violent, there was no way we could get our weapons secure and still maintain control of the patient.

The law on carrying in hospitals does not apply to police officers.