2007 State Fair of Texas - Important CHL Update

[CHL/LEO]

We just attended our orientation meeting for all the officers that will be working the State Fair this year. One important change to this year's event is that CHL holders will not be allowed to carry firearms while in the Fair this year. This is a big change from previous years that you will need to prepare for. This is not a DPD rule or policy - this comes from the State Fair management.

We were told that if someone comes into the fair with a gun and they have a CHL that there will be no LE action taken against them as they have not broken any state laws. However, a representative of the State Fair will be contacted and the violator will be detained until they arrive. Once the State Fair representative arrives the violator will be informed once again of this new policy and asked to remove their gun from the premises. If they refuse to do so then they will be given a Criminal Trespass warning and if they refuse at that time to leave, or return back to the fair grounds this year they will be arrested. I can also pretty well assure that their weapon will be seized and a report made to DPS.

Anyway, I wanted to let as many of you know as soon as I found out since the Fair opens tomorrow. I can just imagine that there will be quite a few people parking some distance from the fair grounds and being stopped at the gate regarding this new policy. They will be faced with a long trek back to their vehicle, or if they took DART to the fair they will have to spend money and time to return to some location where they can safely store their gun.

Also, be prepared for longer lines at the entrances due to the extra security of wanding every person and searching all of their belongings. If you do decide to come and visit have a great time as there are a lot of new attractions, rides and food vendors this year.

*** UPDATE ***

Just got a call from my supervisor and we've now been told that the State Fair management has decided to allow CHL holders onto the premises. It seems like a lot of phone calls has caused them to change directions. CHL holders will need to notify security at the gates that they have a weapon and a State Fair representative will be called to the location to verify the CHL is in order.

[Charles L. Cotton]

This may be a silly question, but is the State Fair on government property?

Chas.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Is thet State Fair put on by a government agency or a private business?

Are the fairgrounds going to be posted with proper 30.06 signs, or are they going to surprise people with a verbal "no guns allowed"?

[HighVelocity]

I will not be going to fair park unarmed. Looks like I'll be saving some money this year by staying home.

[carlson1]

This may be a silly question, but is the State Fair on government property?

Chas.

This is something for you to charge with 100% Mr. Cotton. Maybe the TSRA or several of your attorney friend can ATTACK this before it spreads.

[Sly Dog]

I will not be going to fair park unarmed. Looks like I'll be saving some money this year by staying home.

I agree. I'll not be spending any money there this year either!

[Charles L. Cotton]

I found the answer to my question. The State Fair is held on a 277 acre city park, so CHL's cannot legally be barred access with a handgun. Since TPC 30.06 doesn't apply to government-owned property, and since TPC 30.05 cannot be used to exclude a CHL based solely on the fact that the person has a handgun and a CHL, then there is no basis for an arrest. I hope DPD and the officers understand their exposure for making a blatantly illegal arrest.

CHL/LEO, thanks for posting this warning and please understand my comments aren't directed at you.

Also, the State Fair website still shows CHL's can bring guns. Here is a copy of the information on their website:

Can I bring...

...a wagon? Yes.
Small children may be pulled in a wagon.

...a bicycle, skateboard or roller skates? No.
The Fair draws large crowds. In the interest of overall safety for our guests, we ask that you do not bring skateboards, scooters, roller skates and other wheeled forms of transportation inside the gates (wagons to transport small children are approved).

...a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. Licenses will be examined at the entrance by an authorized security supervisor. Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience.

Here is a link: http://www.bigtex.com/generalinfo/faqs/bring.html

[CHL/LEO]

This may be a silly question, but is the State Fair on government property?

Charles - found this on their website:

Fair Park, a 277-acre entertainment and recreation complex owned by the City of Dallas

http://www.bigtex.com/generalinfo/facts/

However, it sounds like it's run by a private organization:

State Fair of Texas, Inc. is the organization responsible for producing the well-known event of the same name.

http://www.bigtex.com/aboutus/sft101/

This is probably going to be very similar to the American Airlines Center situation which is owned by the City of Dallas but leased by a private operating group. As you will recall they too prohibit CHL holders from carrying at certain events,

[Sangiovese]

...there will be no LE action taken against them as they have not broken any state laws.

...the violator will be detained until they arrive.

Thanks for the heads up. It does sound like the instructions you have been given are contradictory though. If I haven't broken any laws, what is the basis for detaining me?

I'm not trying to argue with you... I really appreciate you giving us this heads up. I'm just trying to understand the legality of their planned response. It sounds like they are planning to have me held against my will for no legal reason. Am I off base here?

And this is not even considering the fact that it will be illegal to ban CHLs anyway due to it being government property.

Thoughts?

[frankie_the_yankee]

And this is not even considering the fact that it will be illegal to ban CHLs anyway due to it being government property.

Thoughts?

If State Fair of Texas Inc., a private organization, leases the fairgrounds, then I would say that they are the ones controlling the property for that time period and that it is THEIR RIGHT to allow or deny concealed handguns as they see fit.

Just like the AA Center that we discussed earlier.

I understand that some others have a different interpretation. I am very interested to learn which interpretation is correct. This will probably require a court action of some sort.

[CHL/LEO]

Charles, we were just informed of this new policy today. They told us it was a "last minute" decision by the fair management. Our supervisors told us in no uncertain terms that we could not arrest a CHL holder for having a gun - that a representative of the fair would have to handle the situation. It's more commonly referred to as enforcing "house rules" which we do not do. This could be a pretty interesting situation as to how they deal with it and how we are asked to intervene. Our department's legal counsel must know that there's some gray area here or they would have never taken the time to go into the detail that they did with us.

One thing is for sure - unless they have upgraded their security people it shouldn't be much of a problem for anyone to get into the fair with a gun. I do know one thing for sure and that is if I was not able to carry a gun I would NEVER go to that neighborhood, park my car and walk with my family (or even by myself) to the fair.

My hope is that this situation, the one at the AAC and all other similar type of deals throughout Texas get corrected by the legislature so that people can safely carry on their business without having these kind of hassles.

[Sangiovese]

And this is not even considering the fact that it will be illegal to ban CHLs anyway due to it being government property.

Thoughts?

If State Fair of Texas Inc., a private organization, leases the fairgrounds, then I would say that they are the ones controlling the property for that time period and that it is THEIR RIGHT to allow or deny concealed handguns as they see fit.

Just like the AA Center that we discussed earlier.

I understand that some others have a different interpretation. I am very interested to learn which interpretation is correct. This will probably require a court action of some sort.

Yeah, the fact that it is run by a private organization was posted while I was typing mine (beat me by one minute).

That still doesn't answer my main question though.

On what legal basis will a police officer detain me while waiting for a park official to arrive and give me verbal notice?

[carlson1]

I will not be going to fair park unarmed. Looks like I'll be saving some money this year by staying home.

I agree. I'll not be spending any money there this year either!

OFF TOPIC: You have got to get rid of the BUG it is driven me crazy I thought we had bugs

[flintknapper]

CHL/LEO,

Excellent job reporting this, Thank You.

[KBCraig]

Fair Park is owned by the City of Dallas.

Earlier this year there was some discussion about being denied entry to government property, or charged with 30.05 trespass, even when 30.06 can't legally apply.

Looks like this is going to be the biggest opportunity to push the issue.

Not that you could pay me to go to Fair Park, especially during the State Fair... but good luck to those who challenge them on this.