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I know the reason that some say Concealed is good. I know the reason that some use for Open being good. I would like the Open just for the fact if that if reaching up or etc. . . the gun is exposed I am still legal. Does anyone think Open would ever be legal in Texas? I understand it is legal Louisana.

I don't know about Louisiana. It used to be legal in Arkansas, but you never saw it practiced, even before people started getting hinky about guns.

I'm with the camp that says concealed is better, but it's not a religious issue with me. But I do strongly feel that open carry should not be illegal, nor should failure to conceal (as opposed to brandishing) endanger your license.

Kevin

I agree. I feel that without Open Carry it is just another feather in the hat of the Anti Gunners.

I'm pro-choice...

I'd like to support taking of the illegality of "failure to conceal" out of Texas law...

Its not like we're going to have blood in the streets, and the "wild west" happen all over again like it did in the mid-90's...

Wait a minute...Y'all missed all that???

I too am pro-choice.

Most of the time, I wouldn't consider open carry but, there have been occasions where I carried openly and thought it was the best plan.

I wish the legislature would let me decide.

Over the years, I have had several conversations with a very pro-CHL lawyer. The reason he gave for keeping the Texas CHL as a Concealed Carry License, was that Open carry would motivate the anti-guners.

carlson1 wrote:I know the reason that some say Concealed is good. I know the reason that some use for Open being good. I would like the Open just for the fact if that if reaching up or etc. . . the gun is exposed I am still legal. Does anyone think Open would ever be legal in Texas? I understand it is legal Louisana.

If you inadvertantly expose your handgun under the CHL laws you are not in violation.

I was under the impression that you were. When I renewed the CHL instructor really reallly STRESSED that you were. That is the only reason I thought that. In fact I am even paranoid to the fact. I spent 14 years as a LEO and I do not want to spend ANY time in Jail!!!!

You are in violation if you intentionally fail to conceal the handgun. It is always good to be cautious, though.


Texas Penal Code
§46.035. Unlawful carrying of handgun by license holder.

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder
carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and
intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

This is another situation in which the violation is in the eye of the beholder.
If you were to briefly expose your weapon accidentally, while bending over for example. It might be a technical violation of the brandishing law, but it is unlikely to attract much attention under most circumstances. That is not to say that some individual might not freak out for having glimpsed such a weapon of destruction. Brandishing was (IMHO)intended to cover somebody waving a weapon around or exposing it in a threatening manner, even if they did not point it at another person. Most folks I have dealt with seem to agree.
This does not relieve you as a CHL holder from the responsibility to conceal your weapon. If you find that your vest/shirt/jacket rides up and shows your weapon during your normal activities, I would suggest you find another tailor, or carry your weapon differently. On the other hand, I expect that folks sometimes can see a lump on my hip on occasion. So long as they cannot see the pistol or really discern the shape as a pistol, I figure it is "concealed from common view". I have had my suit coat tailored to cover.

rgoldy wrote:This is another situation in which the violation is in the eye of the beholder.
If you were to briefly expose your weapon accidentally, while bending over for example. It might be a technical violation of the brandishing law, but it is unlikely to attract much attention under most circumstances.

Texas does not have a brandishing law. A brief, unintentional exposure of the weapon is not a technical violation of anything.

I bow to your superior knowledge of Texas criminal statutes. My point remains, that an accidental exposure of your weapon is not likely to be viewed as a threat by most people. That does not mean all people will be as tolerant. All it takes is one person who sees the weapon you should be concealing and feels threatened by it, to create a situation that bodes nothing but ill for you.

There seem to be a good number of CHL Instructors that are teaching that any exposure of the handgun is a violation. I sometimes wonder of DPS is teaching this in their Instructor classes.

As txinvestigator pointed out in quoting the Penal Code, only intentionally failing to conceal is a violation. The bill originally had the standard mens rea (mental state) requirement of "intentionally, knowingly or recklessly" but testimony in both the House and Senate hearings showed that this could result in prosecution if the wind blew your coat up, or you reached to the top shelf in a grocery store. A good number of questions were asked, a discussion ensued and the "knowingly or recklessly" language was removed. (The DA's Association even commented that this was a real coup.) These hearings are recorded and become part of the legislative history of a bill.

I agree it's important that we keep our sidearms concealed. If not, someone may well make a "man with a gun" call to the police and we may find ourselves having to explain to a LEO that it was an accident. Since virtually all penal code sections have the common "intentionally, knowingly or recklessly" language, there is a very good chance the responding officer will not be familiar with the unusually narrow provisions of 46.035(a). (Remember guys, we are far more familiar with the CHL statute and related Penal Code provisions than almost anyone who doesn’t follow boards like TexasCHLforum. )

Another thing to remember is don’t create a problem for yourself, if you do inadvertently expose (or print) your handgun by making an incriminating statement. If you say something to the responding officer like “yeah, I knew this shirt was too tight to conceal this thing� then you’ve taken a giant step into the gray area between “intentional� and “knowing� conduct. You may still win, but you'll be spending some money with one of my colleagues!

The bottom line: Carry your gun, make reasonable and responsible efforts to conceal it properly and don’t worry about it. If you inadvertently expose or print the gun, you’ll be fine.

Regards,
Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:(Remember guys, we are far more familiar with the CHL statute and related Penal Code provisions than almost anyone who doesn’t follow boards like TexasCHLforum. )

The bottom line: Carry your gun, make reasonable and responsible efforts to conceal it properly and don’t worry about it. If you inadvertently expose or print the gun, you’ll be fine.

I dedicate my participation and my 1000th post to Mr. Cotton for his administration and advise in this, his forum...

Cheers!

Charles L. Cotton wrote: The bottom line: Carry your gun, make reasonable and responsible efforts to conceal it properly and don’t worry about it. If you inadvertently expose or print the gun, you’ll be fine.

1st. let me say I am an absolute believer in the above statement.

After saying that, I am also of the opinion that - this being Texas - So many of our LEO's go around in plain-clothes with their sidearms in full view -especially in the summer -that I think the public - at least in my neck of the woods- really doesn't get too excited about seeing guns on people. (True they usually have a badge affixed near the handgun or on opposite side.

Having said THAT, I've got a couple of more observations.

(1). I don't think that type of carry is really good for the LEO's even in the heat of Texas summers, primarily because it is a "shoot me first" signal to any bad guys planning or participating in any bad things at the time said LEO walks in the door.

(2). They make "Concealed Carry" badges. Now, I'm not a "wannabe cop" nor do I want to impersonate one, nor do I own said CC badge. HOWEVER, it seems to me that it might not be a bad idea for the express purpose mentioned in the previous posts. ie: Your jacket or vest gets blown open by the wind, someone sees your gun - and your badge- and will put 1 and 1 together and not be alarmed. It may just also give you a few extra seconds to identify yourself as a good guy to a cop and keep you from being shot if you're involved in a shooting and the cops arrive not knowing the good from the bad and they see the badge, giving you time to sort things out. You are not impersonating a police officer, it is what it is. A badge that says Concealed Carry License on it.

I guess the main question open for discussion would be (for the legal guys among us) is: even though those badges are legally for sale, would it be safe (legally speaking) to have it on you "just in case".

Fire Away.

Another thing: Why is this thread under "Reciprocity"??? I guess we had the dreaded "thread drift"...

I can give a personal example of why open carry can be a bad idea (although I do believe it should be legal).

In this case, I'd be carrying on my own property, so no laws would be violated. BUT... I've told the tale of the young hothead across the street. Even though we haven't had words other than the one incident, it's made me very cautious about him. There's no way I'm going to let him know I'm carrying. If I made a habit of open carrying in my yard, and if he should go off his meds again and lose his cool, he could easily claim I'd pulled a gun on him. He could describe it, tell the police where I wear it...

Not good.

I sometimes open carry in the house, but I always slip my cover shirt back on if my daughter's teenage friends are visiting. Same thing: they don't need to know.

Kevin