kidnapping - OK to shoot?

[dwsUSA]

I had never thought about this before but after hearing an Amber alert the other morning I was wondering what the law would be in the following situation: You see someone trying to kidnap someone (assume it is someone you don't know) - can/should/would you shoot to help them if you could? If I knew I could do so without hitting the innocent person I think I would. If nothing else I would certainly try to disable their vehicle.

[stevie_d_64]

I would be very very careful...Remember we are not Law Enforcement...I get paid about $0.00 to be a good witness to stuff going on around me...And I think its a pretty good rate if you ask me...

Its actually a pretty easy thing to do, yet a tough one to be sometimes...

Most of the time an unruly child has a lot of build up to the point where you see something that looks funny...But its nothing...

Just my opinion...

[dwsUSA]

I hear what you are saying. In some cases you wouldn't know what was really going on. I'm talking about the situation where it is obvious that a child is being abducted. Here in Austin there was a little boy, I think he was 5, that was taken by 4 young men from the families driveway. Thank God he is now safely back with his family but the 4 that took him are still on the run.

When I took my CHL class my instructor told us that the only way he would ever pull his weapon is if he or someone in his family was in danger. He said for anyone else he would call 911 and be the best witness he could be, but he wouldn't risk using his weapon for someone else.

There is certainly some wisdom in this approach because in some cases you would never really know all of what was going on. But from a legal stand point, if you have reason to believe that someone's life is in danger you can legally use deadly force, correct?

[flintknapper]

I had never thought about this before but after hearing an Amber alert the other morning I was wondering what the law would be in the following situation: You see someone trying to kidnap someone (assume it is someone you don't know) - can/should/would you shoot to help them if you could? If I knew I could do so without hitting the innocent person I think I would. If nothing else I would certainly try to disable their vehicle.

I would strongly advise against this.

Example why:

I have a niece on my wife's side of the family that is severely Bi-Polar. I have had to physically restrain her in the past...and even force her into (or out of) a vehicle. In the midst of this....I don't have time to stop and convince some bystander that I am temporarily in charge of this girl (acting in Loco Parentis).

I would prefer not to be shot, or have to shoot someone over a kidnapping they "thought" they were witnessing.

If you want to help, call 911, be a good witness, give good descriptions of the person and their vehicle, their dress, the place it occurred, etc. Follow them if it can be done safely, stay on line with 911 personnel.

Unless you personally know the person being "kidnapped" and all the circumstances surrounding it, then NO...do not physically intervene.

Just my .02 on it.

[flintknapper]

I hear what you are saying. In some cases you wouldn't know what was really going on. I'm talking about the situation where it is obvious that a child is being abducted. Here in Austin there was a little boy, I think he was 5, that was taken by 4 young men from the families driveway. Thank God he is now safely back with his family but the 4 that took him are still on the run.

When I took my CHL class my instructor told us that the only way he would ever pull his weapon is if he or someone in his family was in danger. He said for anyone else he would call 911 and be the best witness he could be, but he wouldn't risk using his weapon for someone else.

There is certainly some wisdom in this approach because in some cases you would never really know all of what was going on. But from a legal stand point, if you have reason to believe that someone's life is in danger you can legally use deadly force, correct?

Yes, the law provides that you may use deadly force or the threat of deadly force to protect a third person from death or serious bodily harm, subject to the same retrictions as for your self.

As for the kidnapping thing, make darn sure you are right.

PENAL CODE CHAPTER 20.
KIDNAPPING AND UNLAWFUL RESTRAINT


§ 20.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Restrain" means to restrict a person's movements
without consent, so as to interfere substantially with the person's
liberty, by moving the person from one place to another or by
confining the person. Restraint is "without consent" if it is
accomplished by:
(A) force, intimidation, or deception; or
(B) any means, including acquiescence of the
victim, if:
(i) the victim is a child who is less than
14 years of age or an incompetent person and the parent, guardian,
or person or institution acting in loco parentis has not acquiesced
in the movement or confinement; or
(ii) the victim is a child who is 14 years
of age or older and younger than 17 years of age, the victim is taken
outside of the state and outside a 120-mile radius from the victim's
residence, and the parent, guardian, or person or institution
acting in loco parentis has not acquiesced in the movement.
(2) "Abduct" means to restrain a person with intent to
prevent his liberation by:
(A) secreting or holding him in a place where he
is not likely to be found; or
(B) using or threatening to use deadly force.
(3) "Relative" means a parent or stepparent, ancestor,
sibling, or uncle or aunt, including an adoptive relative of the
same degree through marriage or adoption.
(4) "Person" means an individual, corporation, or
association.
(5) Notwithstanding Section 1.07, "individual" means
a human being who has been born and is alive.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994; Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 790, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1999;
Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 822, § 2.03, eff. Sept. 1, 2003.


§ 20.02. UNLAWFUL RESTRAINT. (a) A person commits an
offense if he intentionally or knowingly restrains another person.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that:
(1) the person restrained was a child younger than 14
years of age;
(2) the actor was a relative of the child; and
(3) the actor's sole intent was to assume lawful
control of the child.
(c) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor,
except that the offense is:
(1) a state jail felony if the person restrained was a
child younger than 17 years of age; or
(2) a felony of the third degree if:
(A) the actor recklessly exposes the victim to a
substantial risk of serious bodily injury;
(B) the actor restrains an individual the actor
knows is a public servant while the public servant is lawfully
discharging an official duty or in retaliation or on account of an
exercise of official power or performance of an official duty as a
public servant; or
(C) the actor while in custody restrains any
other person.
(d) It is no offense to detain or move another under this
section when it is for the purpose of effecting a lawful arrest or
detaining an individual lawfully arrested.
(e) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that:
(1) the person restrained was a child who is 14 years
of age or older and younger than 17 years of age;
(2) the actor does not restrain the child by force,
intimidation, or deception; and
(3) the actor is not more than three years older than
the child.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994; Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 707, § 1(b), 2, eff. Sept. 1,
1997; Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 790, § 2, eff. Sept. 1, 1999;
Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 524, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2001.


§ 20.03. KIDNAPPING. (a) A person commits an offense
if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that:
(1) the abduction was not coupled with intent to use or
to threaten to use deadly force;
(2) the actor was a relative of the person abducted;
and
(3) the actor's sole intent was to assume lawful
control of the victim.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


§ 20.04. AGGRAVATED KIDNAPPING. (a) A person commits
an offense if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person
with the intent to:
(1) hold him for ransom or reward;
(2) use him as a shield or hostage;
(3) facilitate the commission of a felony or the
flight after the attempt or commission of a felony;
(4) inflict bodily injury on him or violate or abuse
him sexually;
(5) terrorize him or a third person; or
(6) interfere with the performance of any governmental
or political function.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally
or knowingly abducts another person and uses or exhibits a deadly
weapon during the commission of the offense.
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), an offense under
this section is a felony of the first degree.
(d) At the punishment stage of a trial, the defendant may
raise the issue as to whether he voluntarily released the victim in
a safe place. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative
by a preponderance of the evidence, the offense is a felony of the
second degree.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994; Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 318, § 4, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
§ 20.05. UNLAWFUL TRANSPORT. (a) A person commits an
offense if the person for pecuniary benefit transports an
individual in a manner that:
(1) is designed to conceal the individual from local,
state, or federal law enforcement authorities; and
(2) creates a substantial likelihood that the
individual will suffer serious bodily injury or death.
(b) An offense under this section is a state jail felony.

Added by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 1014, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1999.

[frankie_the_yankee]

There is a huge potential to misunderstand or misconstrue what may look like a kidnapping.

As another suggested, unless you see an obviously helpless person being taken at the point of a weapon, don't even think about drawing or shooting. Note all the details that you can. Call 911. Follow if possible to do so in safety.

That's what a "reasonable person" would do. And that's the standard that your actions will be held to, by the DA, the Grand Jury, and the civil or criminal trial jury (if it gets that far).

[AEA]

Example:

Presumed Kidnapping:
You are picking up your child at school and observe a grown Male and Female child coming from the school entrance. You see the Male physically dragging the child to the car. The child is screaming and trying to get away from him. You can clearly hear her screaming "I don't want to go" several times as the Male physically puts her into the car and drives off in an aggravated and somewhat reckless manner.............

Would you intervene? Would you use deadly force if the Male approached you within your safety zone?

REAL STORY:
The Male is the girl's Father. On the way out of the school she has told him that she wants to go to McDonald's. He is running late and has an appointment that cannot be missed as soon as he can drop her off at home with her Mother. When he said "no" to McDonald's the girl goes into a fit of rage and the Father reacts as delicately as possible to get the girl in the car and get on his way. She is screaming "I don't want to go" (Home).

Conclusion:
As others have stated.......do not get involved unless you actually see a weapon. Even then I doubt that I would get involved without knowing the person. Be a good witness and keep your wits about you.

[MBGuy]

Ok, but what if you know them? The setting I live in there are neigbors to both sides of me with kids. I know them, know the parents, etc. Let's say that one of said kids is riding his/her bike from a friend's house up the road and there's an attempt to kidnap him/her. I KNOW it's not the parents or relatives. What then? Being that I'm always outside and always armed, I've always assumed that if close enough, I'd draw if it's not too late and yell like crazy to get some more neighbors attention, hopefully the parents of said child. Otherwise, if too far, I'd call 911 and get in the car. Once again, I know the kids, their parents, and even some of the grandparents, and the fact that these kids wouldn't throw temper tantrums just cause they didn't want to go somewhere.

Ya'll might say I'm wrong, but if I'm 100% sure as I would be in the case of OUR kids on OUR street, I'm not just going to be a good witness.

[jimlongley]

What if it's a parent picking their misbehaving child up and taking them to the car?

Now you've just pulled a gun on a mother/father that was trying to take care of their ill-behaved child.

Never assume anything when it involves you using force or deadly force on somebody.

I recall the screaming, kicking, roll on the ground and micturate in the pants fits my brother used to throw if my parents, who were abusive I'll admit, would try to get him to do something he didn't want to do, or try to get him to stop doing something. You would have thought he was being kidnapped.

It's like the example we were given many years ago about things not always being as they seem:

Joe gun owner, sitting peacefully on his porch watchin the world go by, is disturbed by agonizing wails from the house across the street and then the lady of said house chases her husband out the door and down the street yelling all sorts of imprecations, peppered with: "you murderer, you killed him, you never liked him and now you've murdered him! and so on in that vein.

Joe, being a law abiding citizen, draws his CHL and fires one well aimed shot at the fleeing felon and brings him down in a lifeless heap, whereupon the wife turns on him and, in the process of beating him to a bloody pulp himself, reveals that the mirder victim was her pet Gerbil and that her husband was actually the victim of a misunderstanding.

The Gerbil in question ran across the floor just as husband stepped in the door and landed right on it, with the foreseeable result. And her reaction was just one of angst.

Things may not always be as they seem.

[lawrnk]

Sticky question. I recall several times my folks had to drag me into a car. I was a bit of a spazz as a kid, and more hyperactive than you could imagine. I am in my 30's now, and try to spoil my folks to make up for being such a spaz as a kid

My kid is a complete spaz, 20 months. My mother always said "I hope you have a kid just like you!" in anger. Turns out I did!

[45 4 life]

Ok, but what if you know them? The setting I live in there are neigbors to both sides of me with kids. I know them, know the parents, etc. Let's say that one of said kids is riding his/her bike from a friend's house up the road and there's an attempt to kidnap him/her. I KNOW it's not the parents or relatives. What then? Being that I'm always outside and always armed, I've always assumed that if close enough, I'd draw if it's not too late and yell like crazy to get some more neighbors attention, hopefully the parents of said child. Otherwise, if too far, I'd call 911 and get in the car. Once again, I know the kids, their parents, and even some of the grandparents, and the fact that these kids wouldn't throw temper tantrums just cause they didn't want to go somewhere.

Ya'll might say I'm wrong, but if I'm 100% sure as I would be in the case of OUR kids on OUR street, I'm not just going to be a good witness.

Have you been trained in how to handle this situation? If not you are placing the person being taken in danger. Why would you do anything other than being a good witness? I hope you are never in the situation that we are discussing here, and I agree we probably all want to do something rather than just stand there, but if you show your weapon the BG is just going to pull the hostage in closer, and grip their weapon tighter. This is when things can get out of hand. Quite a bit of scenarios discussed here lead me to beleive that you and others are planning to draw and shoot if given the opportunity. You need to look up some police incident reports and read about the number of rounds fired compared to the number of good hits. I know we all practice as much as possible. Based on the earlier thread I posted most of the core group on this forum fire considerably more rounds a month than the vast majority of LEO's. The majority of our shooting is at a range, not in a real life or death struggle. When the heart is pounding and the adrenaline is flowing one tends to not be such a good marksman, I know of LEO's that have fumbled while trying to clear their holster.

[legend]

Ok, but what if you know them? The setting I live in there are neigbors to both sides of me with kids. I know them, know the parents, etc. Let's say that one of said kids is riding his/her bike from a friend's house up the road and there's an attempt to kidnap him/her. I KNOW it's not the parents or relatives. What then? Being that I'm always outside and always armed, I've always assumed that if close enough, I'd draw if it's not too late and yell like crazy to get some more neighbors attention, hopefully the parents of said child. Otherwise, if too far, I'd call 911 and get in the car. Once again, I know the kids, their parents, and even some of the grandparents, and the fact that these kids wouldn't throw temper tantrums just cause they didn't want to go somewhere.

Ya'll might say I'm wrong, but if I'm 100% sure as I would be in the case of OUR kids on OUR street, I'm not just going to be a good witness.

I am not a LEO, and I am not trained to be a LEO. That said, if someone was kidnapping one of my neighbor's kids I would jump in if I was able to. It would depend on circumstances, but there aren't very many circumstances where I WOULDN'T assist.. We are a pretty close-nitched neighborhood though around here, and I'm sure that any of my neighbors would do the same for my daughter...

[MBGuy]

Ok, but what if you know them? The setting I live in there are neigbors to both sides of me with kids. I know them, know the parents, etc. Let's say that one of said kids is riding his/her bike from a friend's house up the road and there's an attempt to kidnap him/her. I KNOW it's not the parents or relatives. What then? Being that I'm always outside and always armed, I've always assumed that if close enough, I'd draw if it's not too late and yell like crazy to get some more neighbors attention, hopefully the parents of said child. Otherwise, if too far, I'd call 911 and get in the car. Once again, I know the kids, their parents, and even some of the grandparents, and the fact that these kids wouldn't throw temper tantrums just cause they didn't want to go somewhere.

Ya'll might say I'm wrong, but if I'm 100% sure as I would be in the case of OUR kids on OUR street, I'm not just going to be a good witness.

Have you been trained in how to handle this situation? If not you are placing the person being taken in danger. Why would you do anything other than being a good witness? I hope you are never in the situation that we are discussing here, and I agree we probably all want to do something rather than just stand there, but if you show your weapon the BG is just going to pull the hostage in closer, and grip their weapon tighter. This is when things can get out of hand. Quite a bit of scenarios discussed here lead me to beleive that you and others are planning to draw and shoot if given the opportunity. You need to look up some police incident reports and read about the number of rounds fired compared to the number of good hits. I know we all practice as much as possible. Based on the earlier thread I posted most of the core group on this forum fire considerably more rounds a month than the vast majority of LEO's. The majority of our shooting is at a range, not in a real life or death struggle. When the heart is pounding and the adrenaline is flowing one tends to not be such a good marksman, I know of LEO's that have fumbled while trying to clear their holster.

That's what I meant by "if 's not too late". Obviously if the kids already in the kidnapper's grasp, shooting/drawing is not in the menu any longer and calling 911 and a car chase becomes the next item on the agenda.

On the other hand, If the kidnapper gets away with the kid, the kid has a 1% chance of surviving in my opinion and the next time he's/she's seen is in a casket. If I'm close enough and the kids not in his grasp yet, you've got to play the odds, even if it just means shooting the car to disable it so he doesn't get far. If he gets a clean getaway with the kid, that's kids life is pretty much done. Additionally, I would think that the kidnapper might know (might) that if he gives up he possibly gets away, and at worst gets busted for attempted kidnapping. If he harms the kid there, he's a dead man either at the hands of the justice system or the father of said child.

So no, I've had no "training", but if I wait for those that have had "training", the kid will probably die, and a horrible death it will probably be, so the kid's pretty much already in as much danger as he/she can be and you can do something to reduce the odds of his/her life ending. Once again, though, I am only saying "if it's not too late" to have a good chance of persuading the kidnapper to give up his idea.

Just my logic and I'm open to correction.........