Once more - 4413

[wileyj]

My wife and I went to the Houston Museum of Natural Science today. There was a sign posted. It is not a 30.06 sign. It is a 4413e sign. I have seen them at car dealerships before and have complied with them in the past but I understand that unless it is a 30.06 it does not exclude my carrying.
Can you help me with this situation.

thanks
..wiley
Racing Miatas; Good cigars; Big guns
Houston, TX

[txinvestigator]

My wife and I went to the Houston Museum of Natural Science today. There was a sign posted. It is not a 30.06 sign. It is a 4413e sign. I have seen them at car dealerships before and have complied with them in the past but I understand that unless it is a 30.06 it does not exclude my carrying.
Can you help me with this situation.

thanks
..wiley
Racing Miatas; Good cigars; Big guns
Houston, TX

What is a 4413e sign?

[wileyj]

similar to this
Posession of a handgun under authority of Texas concealed handgun permit law (V.C.S. Art. 4413 (29ee)) is prohibited on these premises

..wiley

[quidni]

If that's all it's saying, it looks to me like they're using only part of the required wording from the 30.06 sign. Is this still considered legal notice under a different statute?

Sec.30.06. Trespass by holder of license to carry concealed handgun.

(b)For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c)In this section:
(1)"Entry" as assigned by Sec.30.05(b)
(2)"License holder' as assigned by Sec.46.035(f).
(3)"Written communication" means:
(A)a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Art.4413(29ee), Revised Statutes (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B)a sign posted on the property that:
(i)includes the language described by Paragraph (A)in both English and Spanish;
(ii)appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii)is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.


From the TSRA website Selected Texas Firearm Statutes

(edited because somehow I managed to post it twice....)

[KBCraig]

similar to this
Posession of a handgun under authority of Texas concealed handgun permit law (V.C.S. Art. 4413 (29ee)) is prohibited on these premises

..wiley

I'll be that sign has been there since 1995. Similar signs popped up all over, particularly on local government buildings, when CHL first passed. The first version of the law didn't define "sufficient notice", which is why we now have 30.06 signs.

Since 30.06, signs like you saw are obsolete and not binding.

Kevin

[GrillKing]

(A)a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Art.4413(29ee), Revised Statutes (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun

That was from the TSRA website, however the actual statute says: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"

Personally, although the first above doesn't meet the statutory requirements of the penal code, I mean either it does or it doesn't, and this doesn't, it's close enough that I would not cross it with a concealed handgun. No test case for me....

[GrillKing]

similar to this
Posession of a handgun under authority of Texas concealed handgun permit law (V.C.S. Art. 4413 (29ee)) is prohibited on these premises

..wiley

However, I would ignore a sign worded as above..... Not even close to the requirement

[carlson1]

If that's all it's saying, it looks to me like they're using only part of the required wording from the 30.06 sign. Is this still considered legal notice under a different statute?

Good question. If that is the case is the Ghostbuster sign considered legal notice. The same as if they told you that you could not carry?

[ElGato]

a person licensed under Art.4413(29ee), Revised Statutes Texas Firearm Statutes[/url

If I remember right that wording was used from 97 to 99 then it changed to " a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Goverment Code" etc.

[Scott Murray]

Another point. Isn't the Houston Museum of Natural Science owned by the city of Houston? If so, they're not allowed to exclude CHL's from publicly owned facilities, except those provided in the law. And I don't remember that museum's were on the list.

Scott

[wileyj]

Legalities aside.
Obviously the Houston Museum of Natural Science intends that we do not carry there. (The even have the sign on the pedestrian door into the parking garage but not where you drive your car in????)
So, when I went back on Sunday I complied with the sign.
Letter of law vs Intent of Law.
Maybe they should be informed that if they truly do not want conceled carry, they should put up the correct signage
thanks for your replies
..wiley
Houston, TX

[txinvestigator]

ElGato is correct, thanks to another website, I discovered that 4413 was changed in 1999 to Subchapter H of the Texas Government Code, section 411.

The current penal code in section 30.06 does not list 4413. The actual wording requirement is;


to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by
holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"


The sign must have those IDENTICAL words, in both English and Spanish. Any deviation makes it un-enforceable.

Yes, it is possible that a LEO would not know the subtle difference in the law between the 1999 version and today. But as I have said before, I intend to obey the law. If I carry in a place that has a 4413 sign I am legal. If I keep my gun concealed as required, no LEO will know, and it will not be an issue. ;)

[GrillKing]

Yes, it is possible that a LEO would not know the subtle difference in the law between the 1999 version and today.

All I'm saying is the closer the sign is to meeting the requirement, the closer you are to potentially being arrested (if you don't conceal well, which kind of makes it your own fault) regardless of what the law says. In other words, if a word is mis-spelled on an otherwise valid notice, or a comma left out or the letters are 7/8" tall, I think you are at risk of being arrested if discovered. You may well win in court, but at what expense. If the letters are close to size, the words are identical but for a one or two, etc., I'll probably choose to lock it up in the car. Particularly in jurisdictions who have made it clear they intend to push 'enforement' to (ah, beyond) the limit (Houston comes to mind!). If its a "No Guns", ghostbuster, etc, that means nothing.

That's just my choice, others can do as they wish within the law. It's about personal risk / benefit analysis.

[stevie_d_64]

Houston pushing enforcement to a new level???

Nooooo, say it isn't so!

Thats the last straw!!! Where's the Bastille??? I'm stormin'!

Or as I was told this last weekend...Let the lawyers and lobby-ists do their thing...

Ok, you got 5 minutes... Then I'm putting on my super-suit! No cape!

[Paladin]

My wife and I went to the Houston Museum of Natural Science today. There was a sign posted. It is not a 30.06 sign. It is a 4413e sign. I have seen them at car dealerships before and have complied with them in the past but I understand that unless it is a 30.06 it does not exclude my carrying.
Can you help me with this situation.

thanks
..wiley
Racing Miatas; Good cigars; Big guns
Houston, TX

Been there and seen the sign. Not a big deal at all. As stated, it's not a valid sign. Also, if you check, you'll find that there is no sign at other doors/entrances.

I had no problems carrying there.