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I have a question about where carrying can be prohibited.

Recently, a friend of mine went to a seminar held in a county building. The seminar was run by a branch of the military. The attendees included military, law enforcement, federal employees and private citizens.

When she got there, there was a metal detector everyone had to pass through. They insisted she not carry her handgun. She was told the metal detector and prohibition of carrying were only in place because federal employees were attending. The people running the metal detector were from the same federal organization (not law enforcement).

Is this legal? How can they do this? I thought that city, county, and state offices could not prohibit carrying unless there was a courthouse or a public meeting.

Thanks.

Was this some type of governmental meeting? If so, then they could prevent entry. I don't think the mere presence of federal employees makes it off limits; needs to be on federal property.

will381796 wrote:Was this some type of governmental meeting? If so, then they could prevent entry. I don't think the mere presence of federal employees makes it off limits; needs to be on federal property.

That's what I thought. It was a training class that had 2 or 3 (out of about 30) attendees.

According to the friend, they were pretty adamant about letting people in with firearms. They insisting law enforcement officers check their weapons.

Is this just a case of a federal agency throwing their authority around?

jay524288 wrote:Is this just a case of a federal agency throwing their authority around?

Yes. Is it legal? I don't know.

Does it matter? They got what they wanted whether it was legal or not and your friend had to kiss their boots.

The law states: (Please excuse the lack of formatting)

Note: This does not apply to peace officers, including commissioned peace officers of a recognized state, or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

and

Note: This does not apply to an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that (A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 20 years of service as a commissioned officer; and (B) is issued by the agency from which the peace officer retired or, for a federal criminal investigator, by a state law enforcement agency.

I was made aware of this information by Excalibur.

CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS

§ 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
(2) on the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress;
(3) on the premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court;
(4) on the premises of a racetrack;
(5) in or into a secured area of an airport; or
(6) within 1,000 feet of premises the location of which is designated by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice as a place of execution under Article 43.19, Code of Criminal Procedure, on a day that a sentence of death is set to be imposed on the designated premises and the person received notice that:
(A) going within 1,000 feet of the premises with a weapon listed under this subsection was prohibited; or
(B) possessing a weapon listed under this subsection within 1,000 feet of the premises was prohibited.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections (a)(1)-(4) that the actor possessed a firearm while in the actual discharge of his official duties as a member of the armed forces or national guard or a guard employed by a penal institution, or an officer of the court.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035.
(2) "Secured area" means an area of an airport terminal building to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property under federal law.
(d) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the actor possessed a firearm or club while traveling to or from the actor's place of assignment or in the actual discharge of duties as:
(1) a member of the armed forces or national guard;
(2) a guard employed by a penal institution; or
(3) a security officer commissioned by the Texas Board of Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies if:
(A) the actor is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
(B) the firearm or club is in plain view; or
(4) Deleted by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 318, § 17, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
(5) a security officer who holds a personal protection authorization under the Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies Act (Article 4413(29bb), Vernon's Texas Civil Statutes).
(e) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the actor checked all firearms as baggage in accordance with federal or state law or regulations before entering a secured area.
(f) It is not a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor possessed a handgun and was licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(g) An offense under this section is a third degree felony.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(4) that the actor possessed a firearm or club while traveling to or from the actor's place of assignment or in the actual discharge of duties as a security officer commissioned by the Texas Board of Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies, if:
(1) the actor is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
(2) the firearm or club is in plain view.
(i) It is an exception to the application of Subsection (a)(6) that the actor possessed a firearm or club:
(1) while in a vehicle being driven on a public road; or
(2) at the actor's residence or place of employment.

Applying what was just posted above, and reviewing what is contained in Section 46.035 needs to be done here as well...

Obviously if the metal detector was in place screening those attending, and even Law Enforcement personnel were required to disarm and stow their weapons in a locker provided for that purpose, the same courtesy should have been extended to those carrying under the CHL provision in the law...

Now that I think more about it, with the metal detectors, you end up with verbal notice so, from a CHL perspective, what they did was legal. Then again, it was a county building...

I don't think any of the restrictions in 46.05 apply.

stevie_d_64 wrote: Obviously if the metal detector was in place screening those attending, and even Law Enforcement personnel were required to disarm and stow their weapons in a locker provided for that purpose, the same courtesy should have been extended to those carrying under the CHL provision in the law...

They did secure my friend's weapon. However, on one of the days they returned her gun to the wrong person, who didn't notice. When my friend tried to get hers, they told her that they had never had it. She eventually got it straightened out.

One of the law enforcement officers attending the class refused to surrender his gun. After an argument, they let him keep it.

My other question is, if they have no authority to prohibit CHLers from carrying, what can someone do in that situation?

Thanks.

jay524288 wrote:I don't think any of the restrictions in 46.05 apply.

stevie_d_64 wrote: Obviously if the metal detector was in place screening those attending, and even Law Enforcement personnel were required to disarm and stow their weapons in a locker provided for that purpose, the same courtesy should have been extended to those carrying under the CHL provision in the law...

They did secure my friend's weapon. However, on one of the days they returned her gun to the wrong person, who didn't notice. When my friend tried to get hers, they told her that they had never had it. She eventually got it straightened out.

One of the law enforcement officers attending the class refused to surrender his gun. After an argument, they let him keep it.

My other question is, if they have no authority to prohibit CHLers from carrying, what can someone do in that situation?

Thanks.

Not attend.

LaUser wrote:The law states: (Please excuse the lack of formatting)

Note: This does not apply to peace officers, including commissioned peace officers of a recognized state, or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;

and

Note: This does not apply to an honorably retired peace officer or federal criminal investigator who holds a certificate of proficiency issued under Section 1701.357, Occupations Code, and is carrying a photo identification that (A) verifies that the officer honorably retired after not less than 20 years of service as a commissioned officer; and (B) is issued by the agency from which the peace officer retired or, for a federal criminal investigator, by a state law enforcement agency.

I was made aware of this information by Excalibur.

CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS

§ 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
(2) on the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress;
(3) on the premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court;
(4) on the premises of a racetrack;
(5) in or into a secured area of an airport; or
(6) within 1,000 feet of premises the location of which is designated by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice as a place of execution under Article 43.19, Code of Criminal Procedure, on a day that a sentence of death is set to be imposed on the designated premises and the person received notice that:
(A) going within 1,000 feet of the premises with a weapon listed under this subsection was prohibited; or
(B) possessing a weapon listed under this subsection within 1,000 feet of the premises was prohibited.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections (a)(1)-(4) that the actor possessed a firearm while in the actual discharge of his official duties as a member of the armed forces or national guard or a guard employed by a penal institution, or an officer of the court.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035.
(2) "Secured area" means an area of an airport terminal building to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property under federal law.
(d) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the actor possessed a firearm or club while traveling to or from the actor's place of assignment or in the actual discharge of duties as:
(1) a member of the armed forces or national guard;
(2) a guard employed by a penal institution; or
(3) a security officer commissioned by the Texas Board of Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies if:
(A) the actor is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
(B) the firearm or club is in plain view; or
(4) Deleted by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 318, § 17, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
(5) a security officer who holds a personal protection authorization under the Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies Act (Article 4413(29bb), Vernon's Texas Civil Statutes).
(e) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the actor checked all firearms as baggage in accordance with federal or state law or regulations before entering a secured area.
(f) It is not a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor possessed a handgun and was licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
(g) An offense under this section is a third degree felony.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(4) that the actor possessed a firearm or club while traveling to or from the actor's place of assignment or in the actual discharge of duties as a security officer commissioned by the Texas Board of Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies, if:
(1) the actor is wearing a distinctive uniform; and
(2) the firearm or club is in plain view.
(i) It is an exception to the application of Subsection (a)(6) that the actor possessed a firearm or club:
(1) while in a vehicle being driven on a public road; or
(2) at the actor's residence or place of employment.

What part of that applies to the question about the seminar held in a county building?

Since the seminar was run by a branch of the military, then they presumed that the facility was leased for the purposes of the seminar by the Federal Government (and it may have been, whether or not any money ever changed hands), therefore the Federal codes on weapons would apply as the premises for the duration of the "lease" would be under Fed control and Fed employees were present.

Did they disarm federal law enforcement too?

tarkus wrote:Did they disarm federal law enforcement too?

I don't believe there were any federal law enforcement officers there. There some from a couple cities in Texas. I know one of them refused to be disarmed and after an argument, the people manning the door/metal detector let him through.

Do metal detectors alone count for verbal notice? I wouldn't think so, unless there is someone standing there saying no firearms allowed.

psycho_bob42 wrote:Do metal detectors alone count for verbal notice? I wouldn't think so, unless there is someone standing there saying no firearms allowed.

Metal detectors are kind of useless without an attendant monitoring them. But the person giving you verbal notice needs to have the authority of the building owner to do so. Let's say that you go into a restaurant and, for whatever reason, your cashier sees your CCW and tells you to leave. They don't have the required authority to provide you with verbal notice. Now, if the manager comes and tells you, then you would need to leave as the manager has been given that authority by the owner. So, if some john q. public guy is monitoring the metal detectors and tells you that you can't enter with your gun, do they have the authority to provide you with verbal notice? Guards don't necessarily have the authority to provide verbal notice simply because of their job duties Just something to think about...