How much authority do Security Guards have?

[Doug.38PR]

a few weeks ago, someone I know was attending and serving at one of the Megachurches here in Texas one Sunday. They served the offering plate and, once they got to the back of the worship area, saw that there was no place to sit so they decided to stand in the back by the door and listen.
A few minutes later the head of the "church security" opened the door behind him and asked him to step out. This 30 year old punk then proceeded to talk down to this 65 year old individual member of this church and told him that he was "bothering" people and "rattling change in his pocket." This 65 year old individual didn't even understand what the problem was and told him all he was doing was standing there and may have had his hands in his pocket and may have shifted from one leg to the other. This "security guard" continued to talk down and act like this 65 year old man was some kind of trouble maker even inturrupting him to shout outloud into his radio that he was handling "some guy bothering people" The "security guard" wasn't at all polite and he wasn't even interested in what was going on but snapped at this individual that he needed to sit down and not be standing up.

The Security guard walked away and this 65 year old church member, appalled at what just happened, ask one of the other ushers who that was. The other usher, casually said that he was the head of security and "they get nervous when _________(the pastor) is preaching." This 65 year old individual left and has not been back to the church since and probably will never return.

Personally...if it were me (and I'm 32, probably a peer of that security guard) I probably would have told the jerk to buzz off. Even though some of the security guards at this so-called "church" are off duty cops, there is no grounds for arresting somebody for simply standing in church. At the most all they could do is tell you to leave the campus (of a church) but I'm not even sure they can do that.

First of all, "church security" is an oxymoron anyway. The doors of the church are supposed to be open to everyone and if the pastor is so afraid then he shouldn't be a pastor. Second, Mall cops like this need to be chasing shoplifters, not playing barney fife in church.

How much authority do Security guard's have? And if you resist one (wipe the floor with him if he physically grabs you or manhandles you) can you be arrested?

[seamusTX]

They have whatever authority their employer (the pastor or church board in this case) gives them, within the limits of the law.

In general, they have the authority to tell you to follow the rules of the place (for example, not taking in church) or to leave. If you do not leave, they can use the minimum necessary level of force to make you leave. If they see you steal something, they can restrain you long enough to determine whether you are carrying stolen property.

The last item is extremely touchy. Stores have been sued successfully for millions of dollars for unlawful restraint, assault, and other damages related to false theft accusations.

Commissioned, armed security guards can use deadly force with the same justifications as anyone else.

Security guards cannot arrest for misdemeanors, AFAIK.

The incident you described is unacceptable. It should be reported to the "management."

- Jim

[Doug.38PR]

^
Oh it was reported. Long story short, they "investigated it" and took the 30 year old security guard's word over the 65 year old man. Then called the 65 year old man up and told him that the security guard said he was bothering people.

I believe this 65 year old man. I have known him 32 years. he does not "bother" people in church. The very most that could have happened was he had his hand in his pocket and flipped his carkeys a little and some nervous busybody church attendee called security "dispatch" and sent Chief Barney to the rescue. In fact, I think that's what the security said, somebody in church called on their cellphone. I have been attending this megachurch for 5 years, it tends attract some...weird attendees who like attention and like to feel important as many megachurches do. BUT, this guard could have handled this a lot more curtious and professional than to talk down to and treat as a troublemaker a 65 year old clean cut man in his sunday best.

Megachurches, are corporations not churches.

If a security guard manhandles you wrongly and without cause for simply refusing to comply with an unlawful command (such as if they tell you to leave when you simply standing there attending church) and you actually succeed in wiping the floor with them restraining them (say you're a navy seal or a green beret...or just tougher than a mall ninja) can you call the police on your cell and have them arrested for assault?

[seamusTX]

If they have the authority to tell you to leave (which I assume all security guards do), you are obligated to leave. It's the same as you in your home. You don't need a reason to tell someone to leave, and he is committing criminal trespass if he doesn't.

IMHO, resisting would not be a good idea. Someone who resists a security guard's request to leave could be charged with criminal trespass and assault. And if you are armed when you commit criminal trespass, it's a class A misdemeanor.

My attitude would be that if they don't want me there, they don't need my money or other contributions.

You don't have a legal right to enter or remain in a church without the consent of someone in authority. I know there was a time when tradition was that the doors were always open to everyone, but that was long ago. My church quit doing leaving the doors open in the 1960s because of theft and vandalism.

As usual, IANAL, etc.

- Jim

[KRM45]

As usual Jim has given an excelent response. I would add that any person may arrest for a felony, or an offence against the public peace, committed within thier presence or within thier view. This generally covers the disturbing the peace type offences under title 9 of the penal code.

[Oldgringo]

OTOH, you and the 65 year old guy have full authority to find and attend another church. I wouldn't put up with what you described for a nanosecond. Do they shoot kids and babies?

[Frost]

Assume they have the authority that the owner does and act accordingly. If they are giving you a hard time either appeal to a higher authority or leave the premises. Assaulting them for grabbing you is a really bad idea. Even if you are justified it is likely you will have to prove that to a jury.

[jbirds1210]

I would be willing to bet that the "security guard" was nothing of the sort. I have found that these folks are called something along the lines of "protection team" that receive absolutely no training outside of CPR and general instructions on what doors should be shut in an emergency.

Contact the Pastor and have a face to face discussion with him/her. I bet they do not want their congregation insulted.

While I feel that churches definitely do need someone with eyes on things other than the pastor, there is absolutely no reason for people to be abused by someone on a power trip.

That said, most churches that I have attended have a "no perfect people allowed" policy in place.......so we have to look past these kind of things and remember why we are really there.

Jason

[bdickens]

You two are welcome to visit St. Stephen's Episcopal if you'd like. None of that nonsense there. We don't have any mall ninjas running around.

[srothstein]

In answer to the original poster, a security officer in Texas has the exact same authority as any other person that is not a peace officer or a federal special investigator. They may make any citizen's arrest that you can. If they are making a lawful arrest, and you resist, you cannot be charged with resisting arrest. You may be charged with assault or even aggravated assault, depending on any injuries they might receive and any weapons you use.

The offenses you may arrest for (citizen's arrest) are contained in Code of Criminal Procedure section 14.01 (felonies or any offense against the public peace committed in your presence or view) and in section 18.16 (preventing the consequences of a theft). There are lots of tricks in these sections, such as not defining what is meant by against the public peace (all crimes are committed against the peace and dignity of the state, according to how an arrest warrant reads).

As was pointed out, this is why so many companies end up settling suits for unlawful detention or false arrest. The guards are not trained properly.

Any person acting with the apparent authority of the owner may ask you legally to leave the premises. A security guard in uniform is going to have the apparent authority, in my opinion. In plain clothes, after identifying himself, the authority may still be debated since the position itself may be debated.

On one of the other topics being discussed, I have to admit that I have never been a big fan of the mega church concept. I like the idea of neighborhood churches where the pastor knows the people in the congregation, the people know each other, and people develop a sense of community with each other. Based on that, combined with the church attitude of taking the word of the guard, I would also recommend finding a new church. Of course, I also know there may be other reasons you like this church and neither of these may eb the deciding factor for you.

My last point is the fact that I have always seen it as a sad commentary on our society when churches need locks, alarms, or security guards. I have always thought a church should be open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, for people to come in and pray. My needs don't seem to fit the church hours sometimes. I recognize that my wish is unrealistic for today's world, but it is how I feel.

[dave_in_austin]

The "to prevent the consequences of theft" phrase reminds me of a question that came to mind some time ago that perhaps one of you legal types can answer. Suppose I am the owner of a stop and rob and I observe a customer slip a pack of gum into his coat pocket and then exit the store without paying. I detain him "to prevent the consequences of theft" and he then removes the gum from his pocket and places it on the counter and proceeds to run away. Is it then unlawful to try to detain him since there will be no consequence of theft if he leaves as he has returned the property he attempted to steal?

[casingpoint]

If you do not leave, they can use the minimum necessary level of force to make you leave

I seriously doubt that. Is that actually authorized by statute or common law in Texas?

As far as that little twerp of security guard goes who spoke disrespectfully to the older gentleman, a good female dog slap would be in order.

[03Lightningrocks]

He really doesn't need to be a member of a church like that anyway. They obviously have no idea what a church is suppose to represent.