Another school question

[barres]

It's summer, and school is out. On Saturday (not a school day even if it isn't summer), my son wanted to go play on the playground at the elementary school a couple of blocks from our house. We did not enter the school building, but my son rode his bike around the empty parking lot and played on the playground. I have my CHL (finally), and know that school "premises" are off-limits, but what about the situation I just described? Would it have been legal for me to carry in the school parking lot and playground on a weekend in the summer? There was noone there to have noticed, had I been packing, but I don't hold to the "it's only illegal if you get caught" philosophy.

[propellerhead]

The instructor in my CHL class said "premises" is the building and parts of the building. He said it does not include the parking lot or driveway. I would think the playground would not be part of the building.

[Charles L. Cotton]

As long as there is no school sponsored activity going on in the parking lot or the playground (ex. car wash, bake sale, football practice) then you should be fine.

Chas.

[cyphur]

Would that hold true for a parking lot of my workplace? I work at a District office for a local community college district and once I receive my CHL I would like to start carrying. Is the parking lot, during work hours, off limits? What if I swing by a college campus during work hours in my POV with the firearm aboard - granted it stays in the parking lot?

My understanding is that it is not permitted in work - I spend half my day on campuses and drive a district owned vehicle. As much as I would like to carry in certain areas my boss would not sign off on that. Even after someone got raped and another murdered next to our current location

[Syntax360]

I also think you are fine. They described it in our class as "buildings and surrounding structures"

[Diode]

As long as there is no school sponsored activity going on in the parking lot or the playground (ex. car wash, bake sale, football practice) then you should be fine.

Chas.

I was under the impression that "premises" would cover al the property of said structure. An officer friend of mine explained it to me like this: Would you consider your driveway part of your "premises"? If someone would have asked me 5 minutes ago if the School playground was part of the schools "premises" I would have said yes.. SO just clear it for me Chas.... Would you feel the same durring the school year? I know for some this is been rehashed 40-11 time but I just want to make sure I understand.....

[Charles L. Cotton]

cyphur:

The short answer is yes, you can have your gun in your own car in the parking lot, with some exceptions.

There are two issues a school employee has to deal with concerning a gun in their car. The first is TPC §46.03(a)(1) that sets out the prohibition of carrying firearms on school premises. The second is TPC §30.06 that deals with criminal trespass by a CHL holder.

TPC §46.03(a)(1) prohibits guns on the premises of a school and TPC 46.03(c)(1) adopts the narrow definition of "premises" set out in TPC 46.035(f)(3) that expressly excludes "any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area." Therefore, as far as TPC §46.03(a)(1) is concerned, you can have a gun in your car.

But note, TPC §46.035(a)(1) also prohibits guns in "a passenger transportation vehicle of a school . . ." I doubt a school district truck or car is what is meant by a "passenger . . . vehicle" but I don't know of a case deciding the issue. I feel confident the legislative intent was to exclude guns from school busses, but that's just "Cotton on the law." If it were me, I would not carry a gun in any vehicle owned by the school district.

Now to the trespass issue. In order to prosecute a CHL holder for criminal trespass, based solely on his/her possession of a handgun, TPC §30.06 requires effective notice be given to the CHL. We are all familiar with the specific language and physical characteristics required on a proper 30.06 sign, but I fear many people are not as keenly aware of how easy it is to give verbal or written notice in the employee/employer setting. Any verbal notice that guns are not allowed is sufficient; i.e. there is no statutorily required specific language required for a verbal notice. So, if you were told in a new employee orientation, or any formal or informal meeting, or over coffee at lunch, that no guns are allowed on school property, then you can be prosecuted under TPC §30.06. As to written notification, while a 30.06 sign must meet the physical requirement set out in TPC §30.06(c)(3)(B), written notification handed to someone as on a card or in an employee manual need only use the required language to be effective.

Also, don't be confused by the general proposition that governmental agencies and entities cannot use TPC §30.06 to prohibit CHL's from bringing guns onto government owned property. TPC §30.06(e) authorizes the posting of a 30.06 sign if the location is already off-limits per TPC §46.03 (schools) or §46.035.

Edited for clarification: TPC §30.06 cannot be used to prosecute a CHL for possession of a gun anywhere on school property, only those areas that are already off-limits; i.e. buildings, school grounds on which a school sponsored activity is on-going, etc. My earlier explanation was not sufficiently clear on this limitation. As a practical matter, if you are in a prohibited location such as a school building, then you're going to be prosecuted under TPC §46.03(a)(1) anyway, but you could also be prosecuted under TPC §30.06 as well.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

As long as there is no school sponsored activity going on in the parking lot or the playground (ex. car wash, bake sale, football practice) then you should be fine.

Chas.

I was under the impression that "premises" would cover al the property of said structure. An officer friend of mine explained it to me like this: Would you consider your driveway part of your "premises"? If someone would have asked me 5 minutes ago if the School playground was part of the schools "premises" I would have said yes.. SO just clear it for me Chas.... Would you feel the same durring the school year? I know for some this is been rehashed 40-11 time but I just want to make sure I understand.....

When there is no statutory definition of any term, including "premises," then common usage or case law definitions control. However, the term "premises" is statutorily defined as follows:

(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.

TPC §46.035(f)(3).

Therefore, it only applies to buildings or portions of buildings. This would be true whether school is in session or not, as the Penal Code does not make that distinction.

A note about LEO's on the CHL statute is in order. I have a lot of LEO friends and many of them are not fully aware of the nuances of the statutes bearing directly or indirectly on CHL's. I know some people are alarmed by this and I wish it were otherwise, but this situation is also understandable.

We who have a CHL have taken a course on the subject. We who follow boards like TexasCHLforum know far more about this discrete area of the Penal Code than 90+% of the residents of this State, including LEO's! Those in law enforcement have to deal with the entire Penal Code, as well as other codes that are enforceable by their agencies. It's simply not possible for them to know any of the codes as well as we know the CHL subject. I don't mean to say ignorance of the law is an excuse for being a jerk toward a CHL, but we shouldn't necessarily believe there is an ill motive at work either.

Regards,
Chas.

[txinvestigator]

Here's one.

My local School District is out for the summer. There are NO classes.

The City Parks and Recreation Department is running a summer day camp for kids. It is held at a local Middle School.

There is no teaching going on, just organized play. The ISD is not even running the program.

I take my daughter there and have to sign her in. Is the building a school? Why or why not?

[Diode]

A note about LEO's on the CHL statute is in order. I have a lot of LEO friends and many of them are not fully aware of the nuances of the statutes bearing directly or indirectly on CHL's. I know some people are alarmed by this and I wish it were otherwise, but this situation is also understandable.

We who have a CHL have taken a course on the subject. We who follow boards like TexasCHLforum know far more about this discrete area of the Penal Code than 90+% of the residents of this State, including LEO's! Those in law enforcement have to deal with the entire Penal Code, as well as other codes that are enforceable by their agencies. It's simply not possible for them to know any of the codes as well as we know the CHL subject. I don't mean to say ignorance of the law is an excuse for being a jerk toward a CHL, but we shouldn't necessarily believe there is an ill motive at work either.

Regards,
Chas.

I think your on the mark with this but I also like knowing what the LEO's are thinking is correct
thanks!

[cyphur]

Here's one.

My local School District is out for the summer. There are NO classes.

The City Parks and Recreation Department is running a summer day camp for kids. It is held at a local Middle School.

There is no teaching going on, just organized play. The ISD is not even running the program.

I take my daughter there and have to sign her in. Is the building a school? Why or why not?

As long as there is not a school sponsored event going on, from what I've read in Charles' previous posts in both this thread and others, you should be alright.

[Diode]

Here's one.

My local School District is out for the summer. There are NO classes.

The City Parks and Recreation Department is running a summer day camp for kids. It is held at a local Middle School.

There is no teaching going on, just organized play. The ISD is not even running the program.

I take my daughter there and have to sign her in. Is the building a school? Why or why not?

Hmmmm I'd say no, that does not sound like a school function to me.
I would error on the side of caution and not carry due ot my lack of being sure. (Man, I hope I get this one right)

[Charles L. Cotton]

Here's one.

My local School District is out for the summer. There are NO classes.

The City Parks and Recreation Department is running a summer day camp for kids. It is held at a local Middle School.

There is no teaching going on, just organized play. The ISD is not even running the program.

I take my daughter there and have to sign her in. Is the building a school? Why or why not?

Some of you folks need to write law school exam questions!

I believe it is the ownership of the property that controls. If the building is owned or leased by the school, I believe it is off limits whether or not school is in session and whether or not another non-school entity is using/controlling the facility. I base this on the lack of any limiting language in TPC §46.03(a)(1) that would apply the prohibition only during the school year, or only when the property is controlled or used by the school.

This is the flip side of the situation we have with a city (I can't recall which one and my notes are not here) that posted it's city-owned library with a 30.06 sign. They contend it's an enforceable sign because it's classrooms are occasionally used by school children on "library days," and are thus off-limits pursuant to TPC §46.03(a)(1).

I have proposed a clarification to 46.03(a)(1) to deal with the city library problem, but it would also impact the situation you present.

Chas.

[barres]

I think your on the mark with this but I also like knowing what the LEO's are thinking is correct
thanks!

Remember that PC 46.035's definition of "premises" only applies to PC 46.03 and 46.035. Therefore what the officer told you regarding your "premises" is probably accurate, but doesn't apply when talking about CHL's and places off limits. Am I reading what you wrote correctly, Chas?

[cyphur]

I failed that one. Every camp I've ever been to was outside, so when I thought day camp, I thought open field :(

Buildings are a different story.