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So last night was the closest I've come in 10 months of carrying almost 24/7 to actually having to draw... and all I had on me was my S&W 642, with only the 5 JHP .38 Special +P Speer Gold Dots in it.

It started off as a quick trip to grab food around 9pm. Then my friend, Andrew, called and asked me to come hang out for a bit with him and a girl he just started dating while a season premier was on for South Park. After the show, Family Guy was on. Then right as I was thinking about heading home, probably around 10:30 ish, there was a knock on the door. He wasn't expecting anyone, and got up to check the peephole. There was no one to be seen. So he sat back down for maybe 5 minutes, when there was another knock. Once again, he got up and checked the door. This time he asked as discretely as possible if I had my gun on me, because he didn't recognize the people. I nodded, and put my hand into my front right pocket snugly around the 642.

I really wanted to tell him that if he had to ask about a gun then it was probably just best to leave the door locked. I didn't get the chance.

Upon opening the door, he realized one of our mutual friends, a girl named Rachael was in front of the door, but she's too short to be seen from the peephole. There were three guys with her, one of whom I randomly knew from an excellent night of beer pong where he and I were partners and won at least 14 games in a row. So some warm fuzzy feelings. Her coming over wasn't abnormal, so I dropped my guard momentarily. We asked about the ghost knock and they at first tried to play it off as if they saw some "random girl" knock and run, but we soon discovered that "random girl" was Andrew's ex. The same ex who had been calling him every time she drank for the past week telling him how horrible of a person he was. She just opened the door and let herself in shortly after the first group entered.

The first guy, to be referred to as Teddy Bear, I wasn't too worried about. Beside having been pretty good party friends (for that one night), he really didn't seem to be much more of a threat than a teddy bear. I think they dragged him along and he didn't really want to be there. The second guy was just a little shorter than I (I'm 6'4") and about the same body build. He was also drunk. We'll call him "Slim". The third guy was obviously sizing me and Andrew up, shorter but stocky, quiet, and also noticeably intoxicated but still functional. He had the crazy eyes going on (Think Josie Wells-style) and I expected him to go off at any minute. We'll call him "Dark". Andrew's ex is named Manon.

Well we introduced ourselves, Teddy Bear and I recognized each other, and exchanged a couple sentences about the great beer pong night. Then Manon walked right on in and Slim explained that they came to talk about her and Andrew's break-up. My hand went back on the gun. Manon sat down next to Andrew's new date and began telling her how horrible of a person he is, and that since I'm his friend I'm just as bad or worse. Slim started by going on about how he doesn't usually start stuff, but if some guy is talking bad about a lady he'll kick his behind. Dark was just sizing us up still, and I was really starting to wish I had my .40 Px4 with a spare mag like I usually carry. Andrew offered everyone a shot of vodka. They accepted. I stuck to my Coke.

It was a very uneasy standoff for maybe 30 minutes during which Andrew explained his side of the story, got Manon to admit she had lied about several things, and freely handed out more shots. Teddy Bear and I made small talk while I kept an eye on Dark. Dark and Slim talked to each other about how they aren't scared of fights, compared knuckles scars from this and that party, etc. Slim told Andrew's date how he'd beaten up 8 guys at the same time by himself before at a point when Andrew was doing damage control with drunk Manon. I strongly urged Rachael to get them out of there, that being drunk with a group of guys isn't the best way to work out your relationship issues. I stopped just short of letting her know that I would shoot her friends if they started a fight. In the end they left with nothing exciting happening.

I'm pretty sure it had been a drunken "let's go kick that guy's behind" trip from the start. It was random chance that I was there, and none of them except Andrew knew I was carrying. I believe in the face of pretty even odds and a very well-played, alcohol encouraged, "oh yeah we're all friends here" facade, they got distracted from their original purpose.

I honestly wasn't entirely sure of the legality of a shoot if one of them made a move but I had decided to pull and shoot anyway. The apartment's set up to where the kitchen, with several knives laying around at the time of the unexpected visit, is easily accessible. I'm not a big fan of drunk, upset ex-girlfriends. Even less so when they're armed. Both Slim and Dark had pocket knives. Technically we were outnumbered, 5 to 3, and the last thing I want happening is for me to get shot by my own gun.

I chose not to tell them all to leave since it wasn't my apartment and Andrew was playing off the friendly, generous host thing.

I guess by the "everyone went home and you're not in jail" rule I did ok, and please note this is not my crazy ex. I haven't talked to her in quite some time.

Thoughts?

Sounds like you stayed alert, and Andrew did a pretty good job to de-escalate the drunk girlfriend situation.
You're right, he should never have opened the door.
I think the 2 important items are:
1. Have you guys decided it's time to associate with more mature friends?
2. Is Andrew's new girlfriend still in the picture? (if she's hot, this is concern #1)

De-escalation on your buddies part was good. Keep them at ease and don't give them a reason to get violent. I would have had the cell phone in hand with 9-1 dialed waiting for the other shoe to drop, though. Your buddy could have asked them to leave. They weren't actually invited in, were they? All kinds of potential for major nastiness.

Glad everything turned out OK. Definitely think about looking more closely at some of these peoples' behavior and see if you have cause for concern in any other people you know.

Don't worry about "looks". They can be the most deceiving thing of all. A preacher and a killer both look like people. Outward appearance means nothing, its behavior, demeanor, etc. that can give you clues. Continue to be alert and carry more ammo!

Get new friends. I've found myself in an uneasy situation one time with a pocket gun. I almost exclusively carry a "real" gun now (Steyr M9A1) - I have had to draw it once, and I can tell you - moments like that make any hassle associated with larger-gun-carry 100% worth it. Having said that, I think that apartment would have cleared out pretty quick if things went different and you lit off a .38 - 140+ dB and the very real possibility of dying will shock some sobriety into all but the most foolish drunken idiots...

You handled it well. Andrew meh. They should not have been let in, and should not have given them further booze.

You guys need to bail on those guys including the chickie that was with them (if I am reading that correctly). IIRC she pretty much set your friend, and by extension you, up. That makes her persona non grata no?

Pistol was ok. To a guy with a knife any decent gun is a cannon.

Trying to put myself in your shoes.
Two guys come in, and there were two of you.
Similar sizes.
Discounting the females as getting involved (probably mistake on my part)
No weapons displayed. Kitchen knives close by is a bit weak IMHO.

And you are going to use your pistol if a fight breaks out?
I just don't see enough disparity in force.
And you guys let them in voluntarily (except for the ex)

I don't know that I would be confidant that the law would view that in my favor.

there were 3 guys against 2.

Check the story again. IIRC it looks like three guys to two. Make that three guys and two girls to two. If you ever lived in the less Valley Girl portions of LA, you would know the girls could be the most dangerous.

I read it again. this 'Rachel' is a definite threat. You need a new class of friends and she is a real danger. She tried to set this Andrew up.

I think the crazy ex "set it up."

You asked for opinion, so I am going to give it to you.

If you have to think about whether you should shoot or not, then you shouldn't. If you have time to size up the situation, you have time to put distance between yourself and the threat.

Next, if you are going to carry, then you need to grow up, stop drinking, and get new friends that also have grown up and stopped drinking.

Fangs wrote:So last night was the closest I've come in 10 months of carrying almost 24/7 to actually having to draw... and all I had on me was my S&W 642, with only the 5 JHP .38 Special +P Speer Gold Dots in it.

It started off as a quick trip to grab food around 9pm. Then my friend, Andrew, called and asked me to come hang out for a bit with him and a girl he just started dating while a season premier was on for South Park. After the show, Family Guy was on. Then right as I was thinking about heading home, probably around 10:30 ish, there was a knock on the door. He wasn't expecting anyone, and got up to check the peephole. There was no one to be seen. So he sat back down for maybe 5 minutes, when there was another knock. Once again, he got up and checked the door. This time he asked as discretely as possible if I had my gun on me, because he didn't recognize the people. I nodded, and put my hand into my front right pocket snugly around the 642.

I really wanted to tell him that if he had to ask about a gun then it was probably just best to leave the door locked. I didn't get the chance.

Upon opening the door, he realized one of our mutual friends, a girl named Rachael was in front of the door, but she's too short to be seen from the peephole. There were three guys with her, one of whom I randomly knew from an excellent night of beer pong where he and I were partners and won at least 14 games in a row. So some warm fuzzy feelings. Her coming over wasn't abnormal, so I dropped my guard momentarily. We asked about the ghost knock and they at first tried to play it off as if they saw some "random girl" knock and run, but we soon discovered that "random girl" was Andrew's ex. The same ex who had been calling him every time she drank for the past week telling him how horrible of a person he was. She just opened the door and let herself in shortly after the first group entered.

The first guy, to be referred to as Teddy Bear, I wasn't too worried about. Beside having been pretty good party friends (for that one night), he really didn't seem to be much more of a threat than a teddy bear. I think they dragged him along and he didn't really want to be there. The second guy was just a little shorter than I (I'm 6'4") and about the same body build. He was also drunk. We'll call him "Slim". The third guy was obviously sizing me and Andrew up, shorter but stocky, quiet, and also noticeably intoxicated but still functional. He had the crazy eyes going on (Think Josie Wells-style) and I expected him to go off at any minute. We'll call him "Dark". Andrew's ex is named Manon.

Well we introduced ourselves, Teddy Bear and I recognized each other, and exchanged a couple sentences about the great beer pong night. Then Manon walked right on in and Slim explained that they came to talk about her and Andrew's break-up. My hand went back on the gun. Manon sat down next to Andrew's new date and began telling her how horrible of a person he is, and that since I'm his friend I'm just as bad or worse. Slim started by going on about how he doesn't usually start stuff, but if some guy is talking bad about a lady he'll kick his behind. Dark was just sizing us up still, and I was really starting to wish I had my .40 Px4 with a spare mag like I usually carry. Andrew offered everyone a shot of vodka. They accepted. I stuck to my Coke.

It was a very uneasy standoff for maybe 30 minutes during which Andrew explained his side of the story, got Manon to admit she had lied about several things, and freely handed out more shots. Teddy Bear and I made small talk while I kept an eye on Dark. Dark and Slim talked to each other about how they aren't scared of fights, compared knuckles scars from this and that party, etc. Slim told Andrew's date how he'd beaten up 8 guys at the same time by himself before at a point when Andrew was doing damage control with drunk Manon. I strongly urged Rachael to get them out of there, that being drunk with a group of guys isn't the best way to work out your relationship issues. I stopped just short of letting her know that I would shoot her friends if they started a fight. In the end they left with nothing exciting happening.

I'm pretty sure it had been a drunken "let's go kick that guy's behind" trip from the start. It was random chance that I was there, and none of them except Andrew knew I was carrying. I believe in the face of pretty even odds and a very well-played, alcohol encouraged, "oh yeah we're all friends here" facade, they got distracted from their original purpose.

I honestly wasn't entirely sure of the legality of a shoot if one of them made a move but I had decided to pull and shoot anyway. The apartment's set up to where the kitchen, with several knives laying around at the time of the unexpected visit, is easily accessible. I'm not a big fan of drunk, upset ex-girlfriends. Even less so when they're armed. Both Slim and Dark had pocket knives. Technically we were outnumbered, 5 to 3, and the last thing I want happening is for me to get shot by my own gun.

I chose not to tell them all to leave since it wasn't my apartment and Andrew was playing off the friendly, generous host thing.

I guess by the "everyone went home and you're not in jail" rule I did ok, and please note this is not my crazy ex. I haven't talked to her in quite some time.

Thoughts?

Please don't take these Monday morning comments as personal criticism, but as I see it, a potentially explosive situation came to the best possible ending with a lot of luck despite lots of bad moves by multiple people present.

Here's my take on where things went south:

1. Not recognizing unexpected knock on the door late at night as a real bad sign and a clear indication to go to condition orange.

2. The apartment owner opening the door to unexpected, unrecognized people at night after the initial knock warning and against his own instincts which clearly detected enough danger to ask if you were carrying.

3. The apartment owner's failure to order the "guests" to leave once their intent was clear and stating that police would be immediately called if they didn't.

4. The apartment owner's failure to lock the door after admitting the first group and allowing the surprise entry of another person.

5. Providing alcohol to people who were already intoxicated and apparently looking for a fight. This is not de escalation - it's throwing gasoline on a fire.

6. Your failure to suddenly and immediately remember a pressing appointment elsewhere and extracting yourself from a very dangerous situation created by someone else that you didn't need to be in. If you were concerned about your friend's welfare without your continued presence, a really nice guy would ask the apartment owner if he wanted you to call the police at the point where you were outside the door and out of immediate reach.

If this situation had progressed to violence and you had used deadly force as you had decided to do, all the issues mentioned by others would have made for a really ugly legal case. Unless one of the "guests" threatened or used a weapon against you or your friends, responding officers would likely have made an arrest and let the DA and your expensive defense lawyer sort it out over the next couple of years.

Unlike most folks who have a really bad ending in their first such situation, you came out unscathed this time with the opportunity to critique what happened so you can manage future situations better. It would be wise to take advantage of that situation and think hard about what happened and the feedback you receive here.

IMHO, Crossfire outlined the best place to start your new action plan:

Crossfire wrote:if you are going to carry, then you need to grow up, stop drinking, and get new friends that also have grown up and stopped drinking.

Good points good points Excalibur. I hate to say it but this is an excellent gag teaching moment gag.

frazzled wrote:Check the story again. IIRC it looks like three guys to two. Make that three guys and two girls to two. If you ever lived in the less Valley Girl portions of LA, you would know the girls could be the most dangerous.

I read it again. this 'Rachel' is a definite threat. You need a new class of friends and she is a real danger. She tried to set this Andrew up.

The ratio may change, but still no weapons except the one in my pocket.

Brings to mind the old song whose refrain starts "Gimme 3 steps, gimme 3 steps, Baby, gimme 3 steps toward the door.."

Change friends. I agree.

Reminds me of the time my mom called me while I was warming up to play at church to tell me that my brother was in the hospital after being beaten up by bouncers at a strip club the night before, expecting a lot of sympathy. My advice to my brother is that if you are not in a strip club, you don't have the risk of insulting the waitress and then being followed down the alley by the bouncers. If you don't have this risk, then you don't get beat up by multiple guys in an alley. So avoid the stip clubs, and you avoid one potential way of getting beaten up. Some folks have to learn the hard way, and sometimes it takes many, many repetitions of the hard way before the learning commences.

To the OP, I agree that this is a great opportunity to refine your choice of friends.

Fangs wrote: This time he asked as discretely as possible if I had my gun on me, because he didn't recognize the people.

Thoughts?

Think he woulda opened the door if you had said "no"'?

"Oh you have a gun? Then I'll expose us to this threat cuz you will take care of it.".

With friends like him.....



In my youth I let a couple of friends take whoopings for starting things that they expected me to finish.