Look what they are trying now!

[marksiwel]

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/1451 ... e_may_2007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Shocking: Concealed Handgun Permit Holders Have Killed 9 Law Enforcement Officers and 108 Citizens Since May 2007

Here’s a pretty horrific set of statistics from the Violence Policy Center, an online resource that tracks news reports of incidents involving concealed carry firearms:

Concealed handgun permit holders have killed at least nine law enforcement officers in addition to 108 private citizens (including 13 shooters who killed themselves after an attack) since May 2007…

According to the site, law enforcement officers were killed in Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Private citizens were killed in 21 states across the country, including New York and California.

Obviously, this poses a big problem for concealed carry advocates, who have in the past argued that individuals who acquire permits "are law-abiding, upstanding community leaders who merely seek to exercise their right to self-defense."

The VPC’s detailed reports of incidents involving law enforcement fatalities paint a very different picture.

In one such incident, Humberto Delgado Jr. allegedly shot and killed Cpl. Mike Roberts, a Tampa police officer, after Roberts discovered Delgado was pushing a shopping cart containing a AR-15 assault rifle, a Taurus .45 pistol and a .22 revolver. According to VPC’s document, Delgado also had a Glock 17 pistol in a backpack.

On another occasion, Jason Kenneth Hamilton, a member of a group called Aryan Nation, shot and killed his wife, a Church sexton and a police officer before killing himself. He had a permit for a concealed firearm, despite a history of domestic abuse. The list goes on.

Or it would, if it were a complete list. These numbers may actually be a lowball estimate because many states that allow concealed firearms aren’t exactly forthcoming with data about incidents involving them. “It is likely that the actual number of fatal criminal incidents involving concealed handgun permit holders is far higher,” according to Mandy Wimmer at the VPC.

Why are these findings especially significant? Well, given recent stunts in which gun advocates have promised to “water the tree of liberty” (a reference to Thomas Jefferson, who said "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"), or have carried signs that say “we came unarmed (this time),” maybe it’s not unreasonable to question the process one must undergo to carry a hidden gun.


Of course my response is
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21181488/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1 Cop killed 6 people in Wisconsin.

[boomerang]

Why are these findings especially significant? Well, given recent stunts in which gun advocates have promised to “water the tree of liberty” (a reference to Thomas Jefferson, who said "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"), or have carried signs that say “we came unarmed (this time),” maybe it’s not unreasonable to question the process one must undergo to carry a hidden gun.

It's reasonable to question the process. I do that often. I ask why jump through so many hoops to exercise a God given right?

When anyone suggests more restrictions on owning (keeping) and carrying (bearing) guns (arms) by US citizens, I think surely they really mean "it’s not unreasonable to question the process one must undergo to vote" or maybe "it’s not unreasonable to question the process one must undergo to go to chiurch" since those rights lag far behind the second in infringements.

[samobius]

People who are intent on committing a crime will commit a crime regardless of whether they are legally allowed to carry a gun or not.

How many Catholics have killed someone since 2007? Do we ban religion?

How many red haired people have killed someone since 2007? Do we profile red headed people?

How many were renters?

How many drove Hondas?

If you look at enough numbers, you can make up whatever statistics you want.

[davidtx]

It would be more relevant to consider what percentage of CHL holders committed these acts as compared to the same acts committed by non-CHL holders. I'm guessing that its actually very low.

[marksiwel]

It would be more relevant to consider what percentage of CHL holders committed these acts as compared to the same acts committed by non-CHL holders. I'm guessing that its actually very low.

I also like the "Private Citzen" part of the story.
Could the 187 people *gasp* BAD GUYS or Self Defense shootings?

Thats like saying cops killed Thousand people last year and then not mentioning that majority of the shoots were Justified.

[PappaGun]

People who are intent on committing a crime will commit a crime regardless of whether they are legally allowed to carry a gun or not.

How many Catholics have killed someone since 2007? Do we ban religion?

How many red haired people have killed someone since 2007? Do we profile red headed people?

How many were renters?

How many drove Hondas?

If you look at enough numbers, you can make up whatever statistics you want.

Yep. I agree.
How many cops use there duty weapon to kill their spouse in a domestic?
The ifs go on for ever.

[The Annoyed Man]

Or it would, if it were a complete list. These numbers may actually be a lowball estimate because many states that allow concealed firearms aren’t exactly forthcoming with data about incidents involving them. “It is likely that the actual number of fatal criminal incidents involving concealed handgun permit holders is far higher,” according to Mandy Wimmer at the VPC.

There is absolutely no evidence to back that up. This is a news organization, quoting a gun-banning organization as if they were experts on the numbers, and as if the statement was actually backed up by numbers — which it isn't, even by their own admission.

I wonder if Mandy Wimmer is still abusing her children....

[PappaGun]

Check out VPC.org

What a bunch of hooey.

[marksiwel]

Or it would, if it were a complete list. These numbers may actually be a lowball estimate because many states that allow concealed firearms aren’t exactly forthcoming with data about incidents involving them. “It is likely that the actual number of fatal criminal incidents involving concealed handgun permit holders is far higher,” according to Mandy Wimmer at the VPC.

There is absolutely no evidence to back that up. This is a news organization, quoting a gun-banning organization as if they were experts on the numbers, and as if the statement was actually backed up by numbers — which it isn't, even by their own admission.

I wonder if Mandy Wimmer is still abusing her children....

?

[shootthesheet]

Same thing every year! This is more lies for the ignorant and lazy who never look for the facts themselves.

[davidtx]

Same thing every year! This is more lies for the ignorant and lazy who never look for the facts themselves.

Where is a good source for countering the common non-facts?

[Dragonfighter]

Or it would, if it were a complete list. These numbers may actually be a lowball estimate because many states that allow concealed firearms aren’t exactly forthcoming with data about incidents involving them. “It is likely that the actual number of fatal criminal incidents involving concealed handgun permit holders is far higher,” according to Mandy Wimmer at the VPC.

There is absolutely no evidence to back that up. This is a news organization, quoting a gun-banning organization as if they were experts on the numbers, and as if the statement was actually backed up by numbers — which it isn't, even by their own admission.

I wonder if Mandy Wimmer is still abusing her children....

?

It goes to the old question; a man on the stand the attorney says, "Sir, have you quit beating your wife-yes or no?" There is no answer. It speaks to the way these things are hobbled together and semantics/statistics being constructed to mislead even if technically accurate. You can say "X" amount of children are killed every year by guns if you do like the VPC and define "children" as any one under 21 years old and paint a grim picture by not differentiating how many were shot by police in commission of a crime, how many were shot in self defense, etc. And Mandy Wimmer is the voice and face of VPC. That's what I get out of it. Of course if she has been implicated (I don't know) in domestic violence then the irony would be too much, if that's what TAM was getting at I couldn't find anything quickly. So I went the other way.

The old saying rings true here, "Figures never lie, but liars figure."

[A-R]

It would be more relevant to consider what percentage of CHL holders committed these acts as compared to the same acts committed by non-CHL holders. I'm guessing that its actually very low.

this right here is the best counter claim we have against this information. So CHLees killed XX cops and XXX civilians last year? Well how many did non-CHLees, who were already breaking the law most likely bycarrying/possessing a gun, kill last year? And what are the percentages.

Anyone who got past Journalism 101 and into the 200 level courses and statistical analysis seminars would already know this. Sadly, most of those people (yours truly included) have bailed out of the giant sinking ship that is American journalism.

[hirundo82]

Check out VPC.org

What a bunch of hooey.

The Violence Policy Center is funded by the Joyce Foundation, which also funds the groups Mayors Against Illegal Guns and Legal Community Against Violence. Barack Obama was a Joyce Foundation board member from 1994 to 2002.

Where is a good source for countering the common non-facts?

http://www.guncite.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shootthesheet]

Same thing every year! This is more lies for the ignorant and lazy who never look for the facts themselves.

Where is a good source for countering the common non-facts?

You and me are the best source for that. We are representatives of responsible gun ownership. If we are willing to be that smiling face and soft voice that gives the facts and where they can be found to anyone that repeats the sorts of lies in this propaganda piece we will win every time. They can continue to write articles in papers and do "reports" on the news until the end of this age and it will not make a dent. Our ability to talk to people face to face as friends or strangers will beat them every time. If we are willing to educate ourselves so we can educate other we will continue to win. I rant on this board and others but I would never do so to someone who simply does not understand what they were told is a lie. I tell them to not trust what I say but to go look for the facts themselves. Don't trust the NRA or Brady or the VPC or HSUS or anyone but the facts they see from reputable and non-biased sources. I do that for two reasons.

The first is that I want them to build their own trust in what we are saying is as close to the honest truth as we can get it and what they hear from the other side is nothing but cleaver lies.

Second, I want to wake them up the same way I was when I was that ignorant liberal minded kid. I want them to go do the work to find the truth for themselves and it is not hard. If I can do it I think anyone can. So if we unflinchingly stand up for the facts of our God given rights and take the time to patiently and kindly represent these rights to every person that shows any interest then we win. We win because those people we show the truth also show others the truth and they show others the truth and eventually no one is left to be fooled by those who actively work to steal this precious choice we have been given by God. The only tool we have is the truth and a willingness to stand up and tell someone about it. The facts are on our side so all we have to do is let that be known one smile and kind word at a time. That is my opinion anyway.

http://nranews.com/#/news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , http://gunrightsradio.com/?feed=podcast" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are all sites for good informative podcasts and live shows. I like the podcasts because I can listen when I want by either downloading them into my MP3 player or listen on the "interwebnet". Also, read the U.S. founding documents and pro-gun blogs. It takes time but everything that has any value at all does.