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The question regarding which specific buildings on NPS land are off-limits or not for concealed carry may not be settled for a while. But for now we need to know what is worst case if a CHL owner carries inside the wrong building: Maximum cost of fine? $______ If jail time what is the max?____

patriot76 wrote:The question regarding which specific buildings on NPS land are off-limits or not for concealed carry may not be settled for a while. But for now we need to know what is worst case if a CHL owner carries inside the wrong building: Maximum cost of fine? $______ If jail time what is the max?____

Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fned under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(c) A person who kills or attempts to kill any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, and 1113.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to:

(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law;or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

(e) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph(1) or (2) of subsection (d).

(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

(g) As used in this section:

(1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

(2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.

(3) The term "Federal court facility" means the courtroom, judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection(a) or (e), as the case may be.

Thanks! I also learned that my pocket knife better be less than 2 1/2 inches. Time to get out my ruler!
I wonder how many people like me did NOT know that about pocket knives and Federal buildings??

Keith B wrote:(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

Now this is interesting. Anybody got an opinion on the obvious question?

patriot76 wrote:Thanks! I also learned that my pocket knife better be less than 2 1/2 inches. Time to get out my ruler!
I wonder how many people like me did NOT know that about pocket knives and Federal buildings??

Me, for one.

chartreuse wrote:

Keith B wrote:(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

Now this is interesting. Anybody got an opinion on the obvious question?

patriot76 wrote:Thanks! I also learned that my pocket knife better be less than 2 1/2 inches. Time to get out my ruler!
I wonder how many people like me did NOT know that about pocket knives and Federal buildings??

Me, for one.

I didnt know you could bring a knife into a federal building at all.

And what about the Spitfire mace spray I keep on my keychain. Is that a dangerous weapon also?? The post offices I go to only have an obvious No Gun sign. BTW: Regarding post offices I try to go to the private ones and they don't have 30.06 signs.

chartreuse wrote:

Keith B wrote:(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

Now this is interesting. Anybody got an opinion on the obvious question?

patriot76 wrote:Thanks! I also learned that my pocket knife better be less than 2 1/2 inches. Time to get out my ruler!
I wonder how many people like me did NOT know that about pocket knives and Federal buildings??

Me, for one.

The other lawful purposes intent of this in my opinion would be like mailing a unloaded firearm to a manufacturer or taking a gun into a FBI or ATF office for inspection at the request of the bureau agent. However, it is pretty gray, so until there is a precedence set by case law, it could mean anything.

There is no controlling definition of "other lawful purposes", so you're at the mercy of the judge for that.

As long as it's not a U.S. Court building, carry in a "federal facility" is a misdemeanor, not a felony as is so often reported.

For me, the most import part of 18 USC 930 is this:

h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection(a) or (e), as the case may be.

Just because it's a structure on federal land, I have no way of knowing if "Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties", thus making it a "federal facility". Now, some places might be obvious, but even those require that notice be "posted conspicuously at each public entrance".

And concealed means concealed.

patriot76 wrote:The question regarding which specific buildings on NPS land are off-limits or not for concealed carry may not be settled for a while. But for now we need to know what is worst case if a CHL owner carries inside the wrong building: Maximum cost of fine? $______ If jail time what is the max?____

Why push it?

If in doubt, don't carry; why chance getting caught and feeding the anti-gunners' mantra of armed gun nuts running loose in the National Parks? If caught in unlawful carry, you'll be losing your license, weapon and large amounts of somebody's money. Did I mention the additional cross that responsible CH licensees will bear due to the actions of the, er,..uh, less observant?

2.5 inches!!! Really? That stinks. I can't remember the last time I was in a federal building, but still.

chabouk wrote:Just because it's a structure on federal land, I have no way of knowing if "Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties", thus making it a "federal facility". Now, some places might be obvious, but even those require that notice be "posted conspicuously at each public entrance".

I'm afraid, chabouk, that someone new to this forum might read this as saying that the requirement for posting a notice might approximate the requirement for a 30.06 sign. That is, that the absence of such a posting might make it OK to carry, concealed or uncealed, in the federal facillity. These are two independent obligations. If the feds neglect their obligation, of course it doesn't relieve you of yours. I am not suggesting that this was your point, but some might think so. I continue to be amazed at how often postings are misread here.

Jim

C-dub wrote:2.5 inches!!! Really? That stinks. I can't remember the last time I was in a federal building, but still.

Ever been in a post office?

57Coastie wrote:I continue to be amazed at how often postings are misread here.

Indeed.

Whereas the subject is the National Park Service, here's a link to a little something from their website.

It says, in part, "no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility"

57Coastie wrote:

chabouk wrote:Just because it's a structure on federal land, I have no way of knowing if "Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties", thus making it a "federal facility". Now, some places might be obvious, but even those require that notice be "posted conspicuously at each public entrance".

I'm afraid, chabouk, that someone new to this forum might read this as saying that the requirement for posting a notice might approximate the requirement for a 30.06 sign. That is, that the absence of such a posting might make it OK to carry, concealed or uncealed, in the federal facillity. These are two independent obligations. If the feds neglect their obligation, of course it doesn't relieve you of yours.

I hope they read it that way, because that was exactly my intent, because it's exactly what the law says:

" ....no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility.... "

The law functions exactly like Texas PC 30.06: no proper notice, you can't be convicted.

Edit to add: I see CBR600 beat me to it.

marksiwel wrote:

C-dub wrote:2.5 inches!!! Really? That stinks. I can't remember the last time I was in a federal building, but still.

Ever been in a post office?

How many people do you think have broken this rule in the Great State of Texas where a legal blade is less than 5 inches?